Iraqis tell the reality of Iraq .

[member 5645]

Iraqis tell the reality of Iraq...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3515884.stm

My family escaped from Iraq to Sweden to find a better life. What we really found was that Swedes were happy to let us sweep floors but not be doctors. The same is true in many countries. I feel that no one has really helped us to move on as the Americans did. Europe says so much, but stops short of doing.
Armen, Baghdad, Iraq

Yes, I agree with the polls. As far as I am concerned, my life has drastically improved and I see the coalition forces doing everything they can to communicate with and understand us. Of course there are a lot of remaining problems, but please give me the name of one democracy that didn't suffer much pain in order to be evolved into a decent and free country.
Rabii Ziad, Baghdad, Iraq

So why ask non-Iraqis? Do you not believe the poll? Even under occupation, things are better. When I was roughly searched by a soldier and complained, his officer came to my house to apologize, and did it in my language. I'd be dead for even complaining under Saddam. How dare foreigners tell us we are not better off? Do you think we are children who can't see what's around us?

Yes, civilians died, but far fewer than in the same time under Saddam. We are definitely better off.

I've not made any money off the war, and my cousin died in the bombings. And I say yes we are better off. I've lost three sons to Saddam, but my remaining two boys are back in school, which UK soldiers rebuilt and supplied. They paid our teachers; they did more than Saddam ever did.

Amazing that all of the Iraqis posting say it's better. The poll shows that most think it is bettter now than before. And yet MOST that are posting from outside of Iraq say they don't believe it.
Pure, uneducated, blind, anti-american hatred I say.

 

[FZ+]

Amazing that all of the Iraqis posting say it's better.

Equally amazing how Saddam had a 100% approval rating prior to the war. Also ask yourself who in Iraq actually has internet access, or knows english well enough to post... Note additionally that the positive poll result - 57% - is somewhat less than the poll result from a survey carried out earlier.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by FZ+
Equally amazing how Saddam had a 100% approval rating prior to the war. Also ask yourself who in Iraq actually has internet access, or knows english well enough to post... Note additionally that the positive poll result - 57% - is somewhat less than the poll result from a survey carried out earlier.

Unless you are proposing that they are being forced to vote a certain way, you'll have to make a better analogy than that

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm The article with more information about the poll.

And Iraqis have hope! Unlike the chicken little naysayers of the US, looking for doom..

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/middle_east_iraqi_opinion_poll/img/1.jpg[/url]

Iraq will be a great country soon. It took 3 years to assist S Korea in developing a democratic process. They had most of the same problems as Iraq. Uprisings, infrastructure, etc. all were a problem. It was overcome, and this will Iraq will be the same

 

[Njorl]

Iraq will have a much tougher time than Korea developing democracy. There are two monumental problems in Iraq that Korea just didn't have.

1. Iraq has just about the worst population distribution a nation could have - a single distinct group with a majority that is not overwhelming. If either 30% or 90% of the nation were Shiites, things would be easier. At 65% of the population, the Shiites want power, and will have it in a democracy, but the other groups will be strong enough to resist the rule of law if the Shiites exercise power selfishly.

2. The oil industry in Iraq is too big of a prize to resist corruption. In a diversified economy, the rewards of corruption are small, so the corruption comes in small packages. Corruption may affect government, but it won't control it. The corruption that will inevitably grow in Iraq's oil industry will be powerful enough to control the government.

And, BTW, the US did not assist Korea in developing democracy. For years we supported their dictators. The rhetoric from the White house to the very end was that democracy protestors were dupes of communists.

Njorl

 

[Zero]

Is there really only one reality, based on interviewing a dozen or so people? Or are there individual stories, some good, some horrible? The reality is that many Iraqis are much worse off now than they were. Some may be better off, but look at the numbers...57% think things are better, that's absolutely not an overwhelming endorsement, is it? And, that doesn't mean that they are happy about American troops being there, since not quite half agreed with the invasion.

Selectively looking at data and starting misleading threads...sweet.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by FZ+
Equally amazing how Saddam had a 100% approval rating prior to the war.

I can't fathom responses like this. I really can't. It's like saying...oh yeah, but those slaves got up and went to work everyday ...they must have like working for their master. But..that't my opinion..there's enough Iraqi's blogging and enough Iraqi forums that you could go ask them for yourself if you wanted the truth.

Also ask yourself who in Iraq actually has internet access, or knows english well enough to post...

I don't know FZ, you know those backward arabs...how could they possibly get online in a year? how could they possibly have ever been schooled in english? ooohh jeez what are those internet cafes popping up everywhere? oh jeezz... what are those satelite dishes on every street corner? Oh jeez...who are all of these people blogging from Iraq~!

Healing Iraq Iraq The Model
Iraq At a Glance
Iraq and Iraqi's Road Of a Nation
Where is Raed
The Mesopotamian
Sun of Iraq

There's just a short list for starters. Maybe you should let Iraqi's speak for themselves.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Don't forget Riverbend .

 

[Nereid]

Originally posted by Njorl
Iraq will have a much tougher time than Korea developing democracy. There are two monumental problems in Iraq that Korea just didn't have.

1. Iraq has just about the worst population distribution a nation could have - a single distinct group with a majority that is not overwhelming. If either 30% or 90% of the nation were Shiites, things would be easier. At 65% of the population, the Shiites want power, and will have it in a democracy, but the other groups will be strong enough to resist the rule of law if the Shiites exercise power selfishly.

2. The oil industry in Iraq is too big of a prize to resist corruption. In a diversified economy, the rewards of corruption are small, so the corruption comes in small packages. Corruption may affect government, but it won't control it. The corruption that will inevitably grow in Iraq's oil industry will be powerful enough to control the government.

And, BTW, the US did not assist Korea in developing democracy. For years we supported their dictators. The rhetoric from the White house to the very end was that democracy protestors were dupes of communists.

Well said.

But the main objective has been attained (almost): Cheney (Halliburton) and other Bush buddies have secured a nice, low-risk, high-profit revenue stream, for several decades at least.

Who's next? Hmm, let's see, which dictatorial regime is sitting on lots of oil (and not giving Dick his due share)?

 

[wolram]

i actually work with escapees from iraq the overall view i
get is that they couldn't give a dam for politics they just
want to go home and enjoy the quite life they once had

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Zero
Is there really only one reality, based on interviewing a dozen or so people? Or are there individual stories, some good, some horrible? The reality is that many Iraqis are much worse off now than they were. Some may be better off, but look at the numbers...57% think things are better, that's absolutely not an overwhelming endorsement, is it? And, that doesn't mean that they are happy about American troops being there, since not quite half agreed with the invasion.

Selectively looking at data and starting misleading threads...sweet.

a dozen? The stories I posted were simply people commenting on the BBC's polling.

poll of 2500 across the country.
57 think it's better
21% think it's worse
The remainder unchanged.

How amazing that these numbers almost correspond exactly with the populations of sunni and shiites.
The sunnis no longer have their special status with Saddam handing them all the top paying jobs, and freebees.
The shiite now get to be free without being gunned down for looking at someoen wrong.

I posted the link. They are divided about 50:50 (when you count he margine of error) on whether the invasion was the right way to do things.
But they are almost all in unison when they say they want their own democracy.


EDIT- I said BBC's poll. THe poll was done by Oxford REsearch International

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by kat


There's just a short list for starters. Maybe you should let Iraqi's speak for themselves.

I love the guy who posted asking "do you think we are children?" when all the people were telling what the Iraqis think

 

[Zero]

I was commenting on the comments, not the overall poll. Nevertheless, being 57/43 or even 60/40 isn't what I would consider to be staggering support for anything.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by wolram
i actually work with escapees from iraq the overall view i
get is that they couldn't give a dam for politics they just
want to go home and enjoy the quite life they once had

escapees from when, where in Iraq and escaping from what? I would imagine their outlook would be different if they were escaped Ba'athist, sadaam's relatives or appointees..kurds..shiite's..sunni's..christians, moslems, jews...can you be more specific?

 

[kat]

Originally posted by phatmonky
a dozen? The stories I posted were simply people commenting on the BBC's polling.

poll of 2500 across the country.
57 think it's better
21% think it's worse
The remainder unchanged.

How amazing that these numbers almost correspond exactly with the populations of sunni and shiites.
The sunnis no longer have their special status with Saddam handing them all the top paying jobs, and freebees.
The shiite now get to be free without being gunned down for looking at someoen wrong.

I posted the link. They are divided about 50:50 (when you count he margine of error) on whether the invasion was the right way to do things.
But they are almost all in unison when they say they want their own democracy.


EDIT- I said BBC's poll. THe poll was done by Oxford REsearch International

From The Mesopatomian

I have said it before, every non-Iraqi Arab commenting about Iraq should be regarded with great suspicion, for many reasons. Even the Arab staff working for some of the western media. As we say " there is much dust under the carpet"

Nadia - What is this interest in Al Amara - "Shlown Dag Al Amara, Heich w Heich"

This is very interesting and rings true to me.

ABC News has released more details from its poll of over 2,500 Iraqis. This time they break the statistics down by ethno-religious groups: Sunni Arab, Shia Arab, or Kurd.
http://abcnews.go.com/images/pdf/949a2SunniShia.pdf
On the question of "Was the US-led invasion right or wrong?",
Sunni: right=24% wrong=63%
Shia: right=51% wrong=35%
Kurds: right=87% wrong=9%
On question of "Are attacks on Coalition forces acceptable?"
Sunni: acceptable=36% unacceptable=57%
Shia: acceptable=12% unacceptable=85%
Kurds: acceptable=2% unacceptable=96%
On "Coalition should leave now"
Sunni: yes=29%, Shia: yes=12%, Kurds: yes=2%

I think George Bush could more easily get elected in Kurdistan than in the USA!

Results & Methodoloy:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/PollVault/PollVault.html

 

[wolram]

escapees from when, where in Iraq and escaping from what? I would imagine their outlook would be different if they were escaped Ba'athist, sadaam's relatives or appointees..kurds..shiite's
---------------------------------------------------------------------
maybe the world doesn't understand, but few in iraq wanted a war
or Saddam, the ones i know left because they refused to fight.
but they had it easy in iraq many did not have to work and were
provided for,so maybe we can't separate the waring tribal maniacs
from the peace loving, but we shouldn't tar them all with the
same brush.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by wolram
escapees from when, where in Iraq and escaping from what? I would imagine their outlook would be different if they were escaped Ba'athist, sadaam's relatives or appointees..kurds..shiite's
---------------------------------------------------------------------
maybe the world doesn't understand, but few in iraq wanted a war
or Saddam, the ones i know left because they refused to fight.
but they had it easy in iraq many did not have to work and were
provided for,so maybe we can't separate the waring tribal maniacs
from the peace loving, but we shouldn't tar them all with the
same brush.

Well...jeez, I think that's what my question asked you not to do. So, I think in order to not paint those "escapees" (a dubious term at best) that you know..or those who are still in Iraq with the same brush...you should be more specific. Otherwise don't make such broad sweeping claims.

 

[FZ+]

Originally posted by kat
I don't know FZ, you know those backward arabs...how could they possibly get online in a year? how could they possibly have ever been schooled in english? ooohh jeez what are those internet cafes popping up everywhere? oh jeezz... what are those satelite dishes on every street corner? Oh jeez...who are all of these people blogging from Iraq~!
There's just a short list for starters. Maybe you should let Iraqi's speak for themselves.

You are missing the point.

Evidence A:

The poll tells us that only 57% think things have improved, and 21% think things have gotten worse.

Evidence B:

The posting show 100% saying things have improved.

The question we then ask is - where is that other 43%? It is an obvious question, leading to a clear answer - that the postings of the vocal few do not neccessarily represent the whole picture, and that a significant number are not allowed, or otherwise unable to speak for themselves. Simple mathematics. The fact that this is an english site shows a possible reason - the posters are those with greatest contact with the west, and who were most in opposition to Saddam during his rule.

How amazing that these numbers almost correspond exactly with the populations of sunni and shiites.

Yes. But this was not repeated in other polls, and the causal link is not defined. And if that were true, it would be intensely worrying for Iraq's future.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The question of the state of affairs in Iraq right now is not the issue. The real question is: What will happen if and when we pull out?

In the end, only the names will have changed.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking

In the end, only the names will have changed.

are you serious?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by phatmonky
are you serious?

We are not going to "fix" the middle east...especially not by force. The problems there are thousands of years old. To miss this point is to miss the entire point of what drives the conflicts.

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
We are not going to "fix" the middle east...especially not by force. The problems there are thousands of years old. To miss this point is to miss the entire point of what drives the conflicts.

So Iraq will still be a tyrannical dicatatorship?

 

[Njorl]

I doubt democracy will survive long in Iraq. I doubt we will get a tyrant like Saddam though. Hopefully, the forms of democracy will survive, so that in years to come, liberalization occurs. This happened in Turkey. After the "Young Turks", a democratic facade was maintained, but they have actually eased into a real democracy.

Iraq will be a bubbling cauldron of all the forces of realpolitik that mankind has ever known.

Njorl

 

[Pergatory]

Hundreds of exerpts from Iraqi graffiti:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2093154/entry/2097273/

After reading these it becomes obvious that the Iraqi people are not sure what is good or bad for them any more than we are. Which probably shouldn't be a big surprise. I think that the most important thing we can do is set up a government for them that ensures that the government remains in the hands of the people. That way, no matter how bad it gets at any point, there will always be something they can do about it. Beyond that, who are we to set up their laws for them, and decide how they will live their lives?

 

[Nereid]

Originally posted by Pergatory
*SNIP

After reading these it becomes obvious that the Iraqi people are not sure what is good or bad for them any more than we are. Which probably shouldn't be a big surprise. I think that the most important thing we can do is set up a government for them that ensures that the government remains in the hands of the people. That way, no matter how bad it gets at any point, there will always be something they can do about it. Beyond that, who are we to set up their laws for them, and decide how they will live their lives?

Would you mind taking a gander at what Njorl posted earlier:

1. Iraq has just about the worst population distribution a nation could have - a single distinct group with a majority that is not overwhelming. If either 30% or 90% of the nation were Shiites, things would be easier. At 65% of the population, the Shiites want power, and will have it in a democracy, but the other groups will be strong enough to resist the rule of law if the Shiites exercise power selfishly.

2. The oil industry in Iraq is too big of a prize to resist corruption. In a diversified economy, the rewards of corruption are small, so the corruption comes in small packages. Corruption may affect government, but it won't control it. The corruption that will inevitably grow in Iraq's oil industry will be powerful enough to control the government.

*SNIP

Faith in the all-healing, perfecting power of 'democracy' is one thing; practical solutions to the specific conditions of Iraq are quite another. Look at how rough a ride Russia has had since the disintegration of the USSR, and that was a spring zephyr compared with the tornado that is Iraq.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phatmonky
So Iraq will still be a tyrannical dicatatorship?

Why not? Isn't that the sort of government America prefers? Look at Afghanistan, if you want to see Iraq's future.



Well, so long as it isn't socialist, of course...I'm surprised that Bush hasn't decided to invade Spain, since they democratically elected a socialist government.

 

[Sting]

Also ask yourself who in Iraq actually has internet access, or knows english well enough to post

Time for me to come out of solitude.

I'm not sure about the Internet connection but don't you think it's a little ignorant to make that conclusion about Iraqi people having limited knowledge of the English language?

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Sting
Time for me to come out of solitude.

I'm not sure about the Internet connection but don't you think it's a little ignorant to make that conclusion about Iraqi people having limited knowledge of the English language?

Bravo :)

 

[FZ+]

Originally posted by Sting
Time for me to come out of solitude.

I'm not sure about the Internet connection but don't you think it's a little ignorant to make that conclusion about Iraqi people having limited knowledge of the English language?

Can people please actually try to understand what I am saying?

Repeat again: I am not saying Iraqi people are stupid.

Just look at it objectively - the chances are, in a foreign country, the prevalence of knowledge of language of another country is not extremely high. I doubt many of us post on Arabic websites, right? Certainly some do, but this limits the size of the sample significantly, and so the small number that do post do not neccessarily represent the whole of the population. The evidence comes from the clear disconnect from the poll - which we can assume, if it was competently done, to have been conducted privately in the individual's mother tongue, and the posts, which were carried out in a foreign language, on a public board that few may indeed have access to.

Thus, this is an illustration of the inherent limitations of taking the postings, or blogs of the few, as the beginning and end of it. Certainly, they say an aspect of the reality of Iraq, but for the full reality, I'd rather trust the poll - which gives us a much more complex, and ambiguous picture. Wouldn't you?

Since I am the major UK poster here, would you conclude 100% of the UK population are against the war, and automatically rubbish Bush's claims of support from the UK?

 

[Nereid]

Since I am the major UK poster here, would you conclude 100% of the UK population are against the war, and automatically rubbish Bush's claims of support from the UK?

Well, if FZ+ is merely 'the major UK poster', we'd be wise to consider others - who are they? Well, we've lost Adrian (or so it seems), and ...

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by FZ+

Just look at it objectively - the chances are, in a foreign country, the prevalence of knowledge of language of another country is not extremely high. I doubt many of us post on Arabic websites, right?

Hardly a comparison. English is the de facto standard for business and international government communication.
Despite that, I do understand what you are saying ;)

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by phatmonky
Hardly a comparison. English is the de facto standard for business and international government communication.
Despite that, I do understand what you are saying ;)

See, that sort of skews the data a bit, doesn't it? If English is the standard for business and international trade, than the number of Iraqi bankers and businessmen speaking English would likely be higher than the number of English-speaking fruit market owners, right?

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Zero
See, that sort of skews the data a bit, doesn't it? If English is the standard for business and international trade, than the number of Iraqi bankers and businessmen speaking English would likely be higher than the number of English-speaking fruit market owners, right?

Not really. While I can't speak for Iraqis, I can speak for Iranians via my clients, friends, and (through marriage)relatives. All of them spoke English long before they came to the US. They learned it to speak with all of the foreigners. The Taxi drivers would make much more to know English to Taxi businessman around the country. Despite sanctions, I would imagine that English as prevalent (if not more) as it was in the 80's when we funneled many many businessmen and contractors through the country,

EDIT- and thinking further about this. If it were, in your idea, just the banker and businessmen,under Saddam is where they would have been made affluent and learn English (if you guys are considering that to be something mostly only the affluent would do). Why would a year of bombing and reconstruction, and the removal of a system that made them affluent, make them happy? It would seem to me that those who were affluent before, based just on monetary status now, would be less happy (and the polls reflects this through the Sunni vote)

 

[FZ+]

The Taxi drivers would make much more to know English to Taxi businessman around the country.

Ok, then we have taxi drivers. Speaking isn't the same as writing, of course, and the US has been accusing Saddam of skimping on education for years... Still not exactly a clear demographic of the Iraqi population as a whole, eh?

You see, you clearly don't understand my point. The point is that as a matter of fact, there is an inconsistency between the posts, which you commented as 100% positive, and the poll, that I am inclined to trust more, which gives only a 57%. That is a matter of fact, and what I am trying to do is explain this discrepancy. What's your explanation, then? That Sunnis don't know how to type?

The only alternative that appears open to me is an active or passive censorship of anti-invasion postings, which is rather less palatable, no?

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by FZ+

The only alternative that appears open to me is an active or passive censorship of anti-invasion postings, which is rather less palatable, no?

Or the simple fact that there is a much lesser percentage of people that think things are worse off, and therefore it's less likely someone negative willl actually take the time to go into one of the (3?)internet cafes that Iraq has open as of last month.
You guys are putting WAY too much pressure on the posts, which I only put to back up the fact that there are actually people REALLY behind the numbers, that think Iraq is better now than before (and so you could see soem of their reasoning). The fact remains though, that there is no obvious coorelation between speaking English and being affluent. There is also no obvious coorelation through internet usage and being affluent, since many of the cafes allow free access at certain time.

 

[member 5645]

Why don't you guys try getting back to the poll? Zero, you were nazimod last night atleast.