Sure. For the pussy crap that passes as civil war these days, why not?
I always wonder about that. What, 600 Lebanese have died in the past month? Seriously, back in the day, 600 casualties would be a good DAY! Sheeshpcorbett said:Sure. For the pussy crap that passes as civil war these days, why not?
Welcome to PF, nice to have a mulsim perspective. I'm from the UK by the way, to put some perspective on what I say next.jiriya said:hi there , i am a new member and a proud muslim,
Most people here on this forum are actually a little better educated than that and know that it is both forbidden to kill innocents and to commit suicide in the Quran.as i can see , there are alot of people on this forum that think Islam is based upon bombs and terrorism and I don't blame them because thats what they get brainwashed to believe on the media.
But let me just be clear here - the media is all false and rubbis- - It is all based upon the ''strings'' of the USA and Israel-
It's not those who follow their religion strictly we worry about it's the minority who corrupt it to suit a political agenda(fundementalists) Sadly they have the most power and loudest voices, we don't believe that for example Osamah Bin Laden is a Muslim any more than I personally believe Bush is a Christian(their both incredibly poor examples of their faith) I know full well that in the Quran, Jihad means to struggle not holy war, in fact war is a last resort of Jihad only after everything else has failed, be nice if the US adhered to that principle as well as the fundementalists but hey nm, we have a hundred and one reasons not to go to war from our bible, but religion in the US is both a convenience and an inconvenience to the president, he uses his suposed religous foundation to rally support, but ironically is not in any way following his beliefs, it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.and just to clear some MAJOR misconceptions about Islam , let me state the following:
- 1)Islam forbids terrorism- in the Quran =- there is a verse that clearly states that :- who so ever kills someone - gets the same scale of sin as if he/she has killed ALL MANKIND
I quite agree. However the US is not at war with the Iraqi people believe it or not, it is caught between Sunni and Shei'ite factions though. With only the Khurds with any love for the US. When England controlled Iraq, the Sunnis and Shei'ites united together to rid themselves of this colonial rule, when England left they fell to fighting amongst each other for power, Saddam if he did nothing else secured peace and a secular rule;so why we didn't expect this to happen again is beyond me, in fact most did expect this to happen but the planning for the smooth transition and the winning the hearts and minds of people was apallingly badly executed, most have gone as far as saying incompetent. Also it has come to light that some Soldiers most notably a UK Dr and SAS seargeant have refused to return to Iraq because they claim the war is illegal, The SAS soldier also saw widespread as he put it Untermensch(sub-human or under man) philosophy amongst the Americans who he stated had no real idea about the culture or respect for the Iraqi people(again a result of poor training and planning)-2) Palestine and Iraq people have all the right to kill American troops because the USA and Israel are invadiong their land under inllegal occupation- so its atural for them to defend their land!
Attrocities happen in war, I wont be trite enough to say s**t happens though in war like some people do, needles to say the rapists are being tried and will no doubt spend the rest of their lives or a significant part of it in a military prison(not sure, Court martials win around 98% of the time though, they are not like civil courts, they tend only to bring to trial crimes they know they can win) Its not quite sharia law but it's not exactly going to go lightly for them either. Same goes for the Marines who massacred villagers in Haditha(I think it was) They'll be strictly punished if it is found that they behaved badly. As for torture, we could start a whole new thread on that, suffice to say there is international pressure on the US to follow strictly the Geneva convention, it is not clear whether they are though, so I can't comment further.and the americans are killing civilians,,raping women, torturng people all just for no reason
This is part of it and I dont say a small part either(you need to understand capatilist mentallity it is greedy and selfish, and the Republicans hold economics up as a false idol - akin to the golden calf - almost it's not a perfect analogy but it's the best I can think of, which is ironic as the US is labouring under a 3 trillion dollar debt due in no small part to it's war mongering) It's just so widely accepted that no one mentions it any more. The same reason the British were there 50 years ago. I'm not sure if it's any comfort but should the US&UK sell all of the fuel reserves left in Iraq it is estimated it will not cover the cost of the campaign, if you include human lives it never would.- because if they TRULY went in to remove SADDAM HUSSEIN- then why are they still in there even though they have captured him ages ago since the 2003 led invasion of Iraq?
- and if anyone just thinks LOGIACLLY - you would realise that the USA and Britain are in there for the same sole purpose - yes you gussed it -- OIL!!!
- Iraq has the 2nd/3rd biggest oil reserves in the world!
- 17/80 Oil reserves are currently used and ONE of them is ten times bigger and wealthier then North Britains OIL reserves!
No I'm good, peace be with you- if anyone has any questions about Islam - please just email me -
The term "Fundamentalists" seems to be a misnomer IMO, which is used to refer to those who have some simplistic and literal interpretation (or more accurately, MIS-interpration) of a religious text. As for Bush's beliefs, I am left wondering what he actually does believe. His actions speak louder than words, and he appears to me to worship power and materialism. I cannot consider him Christian, since his behavior is contrary to Christian principles.Schrodinger's Dog said:It's not those who follow their religion strictly we worry about it's the minority who corrupt it to suit a political agenda(fundementalists) Sadly they have the most power and loudest voices, we don't believe that for example Osamah Bin Laden is a Muslim any more than I personally believe Bush is a Christian(their both incredibly poor examples of their faith) I know full well that in the Quran, Jihad means to struggle not holy war, in fact war is a last resort of Jihad only after everything else has failed, be nice if the US adhered to that principle as well as the fundementalists but hey nm, we have a hundred and one reasons not to go to war from our bible, but religion in the US is both a convenience and an inconvenience to the president, he uses his suposed religous foundation to rally support, but ironically is not in any way following his beliefs, it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
First thing. What interest does Syria have in supporting Sunni independence in Iraq.turbo-1 said:This is something that lots of people overlook. If we "regionalized" Iraq and allowed each faction local control with a central government, Turkey would probably start attacking the Kurdish state, Iran would side with the Shiites and lay into the Sunnis, and perhaps prompt Syria to throw in with the Sunnis...it's going to be pure hell no matter how we try to disengage. President Cheney and his little Bush yes-man have sold us out and have destined the Iraqis to civil war. There is no war as destructive or as hard to recover from as a civil war, as any US citizen should know, if they bother to study history.
Norton makes the comment that the situation in Iraq IS Civil War.Fresh Air from WHYY, August 10, 2006 · Augustus Richard Norton is a professor of international relations and anthropology at Boston University and has been writing about Lebanon for 25 years. He is an expert on the Shiite political movements, including Hezbollah. A member of the Council on Foreign Relations, Norton's books include Amal and the Shi'a: Struggle for the Soul of Lebanon and Civil Society in the Middle East.
try to say the truth at least here. If the Americans came to Iraq for the democracy, it was preferable to start with Saudi Arabia. The Americans came to Iraq neither for oil neither for the democracy nor for their proper interest, they came just to make like Israil. The Americans can pump the oil of the East as they want even at the time of Saddam.Schrodinger's Dog said:ll all of the fuel reserves left in Iraq it is estimated it will not cover the cost of the campaign, if you include human lives it never would.
Journalist Says Iraq Security Outlook is BleakMorning Edition, August 22, 2006 · The rising death toll and number of insurgent attacks in Iraq has forced the U.S. to add troops in Baghdad to try and reverse the trend in the country's capital. The U.S. plans to eventually turn over security responsibility to Iraqis.
Steve Inskeep speaks to Gen. George Casey, the commanding general of the multinational force in Iraq.
Casey says that Baghdad has become safer since the U.S. deployed additional forces to the capital earlier this summer.
"But we have a long way to go…. We actually have seen a positive trend over the last five weeks here. [It's] too early to say that this is going to last, but the operations that we have been doing have had a positive impact.
. . . .
I heard a comment yesterday that most experts (including many retired generals) in the matter see that Iraq is in the midst of a civil war.Morning Edition, August 22, 2006 · One observer of the security situation in Iraq says that the U.S. response to Iraq's growing violence is failing to quell the trouble.
Steve Inskeep talks to Time Magazine's Bobby Ghosh in Baghdad about General Casey's view of the conflict in Iraq.
WASHINGTON - The presence of several thousand extra U.S. troops in Baghdad in recent weeks showed that sectarian violence can be quelled by force of arms. But Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the gains will be lost unless the Iraqi government reconciles rival religious sects.
"There ... is no question but that you can go in and clear out an area and achieve a reduction in violence, and the test is not that," Rumsfeld told reporters in a joint appearance Friday at the Pentagon with Iraqi Deputy President Adil Al-Mahdi.
"The test is what happens thereafter. And the important thing is for the Iraqi government to achieve success with respect to its reconciliation process," he said. "It's important that they deal with the militia issue."
Would have been nice had it been obvious to him in 2002/2003 when he was deciding on troop levels for the invasion/occupation.Astronuc said:Well, at last, Rumsfeld says something with which I can agree! Will wonders never cease?! Then again he states the exceedingly obvious.
also posted in the Fiasco thread, but repeated here.All Things Considered, September 1, 2006 · The Pentagon acknowledges what already has been expressed by U.S. military commanders and others recently: Sectarian violence in Iraq is spreading beyond Baghdad. In its quarterly report, the Pentagon report showed Iraqi deaths have risen by 50 percent over the previous quarter.
Five weeks after the Bush administration brought thousands of new troops to quell rising sectarian violence in Baghdad, Assistant Secretary of Defense Peter Rodman says violence between Sunni and Shiite muslims has increased elsewhere in Iraq.
The report says violence has held steady in Baghdad. But it has increased in the southern city of Basra, where British troops have clashed with the Mahdi Army. It has risen in Diyala Province in central Iraq, as well as in the northern cities of Mosul and Kirkuk.
The report says, "Conditions that could lead to civil war exist in Iraq, specifically in and around Baghdad, and concern about civil war within the Iraqi civilian population has increased in recent months."
Nationwide in Iraq, the average number of weekly attacks tallied by the Pentagon has increased 15 percent over the past few months. Iraqi casualties have risen by 51 percent. That translates to 1,000 additional Iraqis killed each month.
So this is an improvement?! Way to go George. :yuck:Morning Edition, September 1, 2006 · Some families in Iraq are reverting to an old practice: marrying off daughters and female dependents at younger and younger ages. It's thought that women who marry very young will be more attached to their homes and children. For some girls, though, a childhood marriage can be the beginning of a life of misery.
Excerpt from Ajami's book - The Foreigner's GiftMorning Edition, August 31, 2006 · Fouad Ajami supported the U.S.-led war in Iraq. In a new book, The Foreigner's Gift, he writes about went wrong with that war.
Ajami says the Arab world was prejudiced against the Shia Muslims who were poised to lead Iraq, and it was prejudiced against the Americans who confidently expected to help them do it.
Ajami was born in Lebanon to a Shiite Muslim family. Today, as an American journalist and academic, he has advised the White House on Iraq. He traveled to Iraq several times while writing a book called The Foreigner's Gift.
To Ajami, that gift was supposed to be liberty for Iraq and a new political order for the Arab world. He says the disaster came when Arab governments, Muslim imams, even Western-leaning intellectuals, rejected that gift.
Listen to -Those nineteen young Arabs who assaulted America on the morning of 9/11 had come into their own after the disappointments of modern Arab history. They were not exactly traditional men: they were the issue, the children, of disappointment and of the tearing asunder of modern Arab history. They were city people, newly urbanized, half educated. They had filled the faith with their anxieties and a belligerent piety. They hated the West but were drawn to its magnetic force and felt the power of its attraction; they sharpened their "tradition," but it could no longer contain their lives or truly answer their needs. I had set out to write a long narrative of these pitiless young men -- and the culture that had given rise to them. But the Iraq war, "embedded" in this cruel history, was to overtake the writing I was doing.
Thank you!kyleb said:It makes sense that, especially as a Shia, Fouad Ajami would be so strongly in favor of replacing Saddam's Sunni rule with one respective of the Shia majority in Iraq. However, I dispute his focus on the foreign nature of that "gift", as in doing so he is overlooking the the effect of our chosen method of delivery. Diamonds are a gift few can deny, but even the most adored gems can be unwelcome when delivered though the barrel of a gun.
Agreed! Especially since it was unnecessary. I don't agree with everything Ajami said. It will only be successful if the Iraqis - Shia, Sunni, Kurd and anyone else - can put aside the violence and start working together peacefully for common interest. Only then can Iraq be successful. Meanwhile, it is pointed out that the very un-democratic regimes in Saudi Arabia and Egypt are holding on - with tacit approval/acceptance of the US.kyleb said:It makes sense that, especially as a Shia, Fouad Ajami would be so strongly in favor of replacing Saddam's Sunni rule with one respective of the Shia majority in Iraq. However, I dispute his focus on the foreign nature of that "gift", as in doing so he is overlooking the the effect of our chosen method of delivery. Diamonds are a gift few can deny, but even the most adored gems can be unwelcome when delivered though the barrel of a gun.
None have been identified. Some may have been kidnapped for ransom.NPR.org, September 13, 2006 · Police find 65 bodies across Baghdad, many in Sunni areas, showing signs of torture. [During 24 hrs]
Forty-five of the victims were discovered in predominantly Sunni Arab parts of western Baghdad, and 15 were found in mostly Shiite areas of eastern Baghdad.
Meanwhile, mortar attacks, car bombings and shootings left another 30 dead across Iraq.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061013/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_shiite_cleric_1 [Broken]BAGHDAD: Gunmen attacked a group of Shi'ite women picking vegetables in a field yesterday, slaying six adults and two young girls and kidnapping two teenagers near a tense village south of Baghdad where many residents - Sunnis and Shi'ites - have fled to escape violence. The shooting was one of the deadliest single attacks specifically targeting women in Iraq's months-long wave of sectarian violence. Police said they suspected Sunni gunmen seeking to intimidate Shi'ites into fleeing the area.
The attack took place in fields outside Saifiya, a mixed Sunni-Shi'ite village on the southern outskirts of Baghdad.
Most residents have already left to escape violence, the Sunnis going to the nearby town of Madain, the Shi'ites to neighbouring Suwayrah.
In another sign of Iraq's escalating sectarian violence, police in the town of Duluiyah north of Baghdad found 14 beheaded bodies thought to be from a group of 17 workers kidnapped by gunmen on Thursday while travelling home to the nearby town of Balad, which is mostly Shi'ite.
The police discovered the bodies at noon Friday, but had no word on the fate of the three other abducted workers.
The group of women killed yesterday were gathering vegetables when gunmen pulled up in two cars around 8 am and surrounded the field. They opened fire, killing six women and two girls aged about 4 or 5 years old, said police Lt Mohammed Al Shammari. The attackers forced two teenage girls into their vehicles and escaped, he said.
Besides the attack on the women, at least 10 other Iraqi civilians were killed yesterday. A US soldier was killed by a roadside bomb in northern Iraq, the 45th American death this month.
Meanwhile, a new video on the Internet showed a man claiming to be an Iraqi Sunni insurgent asking Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden to replace the leader of the group in Iraq because of its attacks against Sunni clerics. . . .
Essentially, Iraq is embroiled in a civil war. Various entities are jockeying for power and control, and that means targeting opposition groups. It seems to be a no-win situation at present.BAGHDAD, Iraq - Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani once wielded so much influence he seemed to single-handedly chart the post- Saddam Hussein political future in Iraq. Now, the country's top Shiite cleric appears powerless as Iraq edges toward civil war.
With dozens of Iraqis dying daily from Sunni-Shiite reprisal killings, the failures of al-Sistani's pleas for peace underline a major power shift in the Shiite establishment.
"Their political interests now outweigh religious interests," said Mustapha al-Ani, a Dubai-based Iraqi analyst. "To some extent, the need for al-Sistani's endorsement is no longer a prerequisite to gain power. Those with street credibility and a militia now have the power."
It's a major shift from the more than two years following Saddam's ouster, when Shiite leaders hung on al-Sistani's every word concerning politics. His opposition to U.S. plans for elections and a constitution forced the Americans to make dramatic changes. His calls for Shiites to avoid violence were largely adhered to.
But priorities for Shiite political parties have changed and their leaders no longer appear to feel the need to be seen to be closely associated with al-Sistani to gain legitimacy.
The swing has stripped the Shiite clergy, with the Iranian-born al-Sistani at its head, of much of its influence and given a lead role to followers of anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who does not recognize al-Sistani's religious authority.
It is a power shift that does not bode well for Iraq's Shiite-dominated government or the U.S.-led military coalition as they try to contain the stubborn Sunni insurgency and the wave of sectarian killings that has swelled since last winter.
Al-Sadr's supporters are widely suspected in many of the attacks on Sunni Arabs. His militiamen, who staged two revolts against U.S. troops in 2004, also have clashed with U.S. and Iraqi soldiers in Baghdad and southern Iraq in recent weeks.
Al-Sistani has responded to the bloodshed with a mixture of resignation and a deep sense of disappointment, said an official who is in regular contact with al-Sistani in the southern holy city of Najaf.
"He keeps praying for peace," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media. "He feels the pain every day, but he has no magic wand. He tells visitors every day that what's happening does not please God or his prophet and has nothing to do with Islamic teachings."
. . . .
When a general of this caliber feels he can do more for his troops by retiring and leaving the military (Army), then something is very wrong with the government, as is certainly apparent when one reads Bob Woodward's book, "State of Denial".Weekend Edition Saturday, October 21, 2006 · The Bush administration's recent Iraq strategy has been to concentrate troops in Baghdad. Retired Maj. Gen. John Batiste, former 1st Infantry Division commander in Iraq, tells Andrea Seabrook the rest of Iraq also needs U.S. troops for security and training.
Actually Bush has been saying that he depends on information from his commanders in the field for the past several years. His commanders know that any request for more troops would be a career ending event.turbo-1 said:Lately, Bush has said that he would listen to some of the generals in the field to see if tactics need changing. If he had done this years ago instead of listening to Rummy and Shooter, we might not be in as bad a mess as we are. As it is, the idiots have painted our military into a corner and their options are quite limited.
The interim government was established by the Bush administration.A former Iraqi minister has said that officials in the former interim government stole about $800m (£425m) meant for buying military equipment.
Former Finance Minister Ali Allawi told the US CBS network that about $1.2bn had been allocated for new weapons.
About $400m was spent on outdated equipment and the rest stolen, he said.
Mr Allawi said the UK and US had done little to recover the money or catch the suspects, who were "running around the world".
"We have not been given any serious, official support from either the United States or the UK or any of the surrounding Arab countries," he said.
"The only explanation I can come up with is that too many people in positions of power and authority in the new Iraq have been, in one way or another, found with their hands inside the cookie jar.
"And if they are brought to trial, it will cast a very disparaging light on those people who had supported them and brought them to this position of power and authority."
The head of the Iraqi Commission on Public Integrity, Judge Radhi al-Radhi, said he had obtained arrest warrants for a number of officials in October 2005, but almost all the suspects fled the country.
None of the officials have been named.
But CBS's 60 Minutes programme also played an audio recording of Ziad Cattan, who was in charge of military procurement at the time, apparently talking in Amman, Jordan to an associate about pay-offs to senior Iraqi officials.
Based on what I have seen and heard eslewhere, Fernandez's initial remarks are on the mark.The US state department official who said that the US had shown "arrogance and stupidity" in Iraq has apologised for his comments.
Alberto Fernandez, who made the remarks during an interview with Arabic TV station al-Jazeera, said he had "seriously misspoken".
His comments did not represent the views of the state department, he said.
The BBC's Sarah Morris in Washington says it is unclear if Mr Fernandez was told by his seniors to apologise.
His original remarks have resonated with many Democrats and some Republicans who have been urging the administration to shift their course in the conflict, she says.
They came at a time of intense scrutiny of White House Iraq policy, with mid-term elections due next month.
'Disaster for region'
Mr Fernandez is an Arabic speaker who is director of public diplomacy in the state department's Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs.
On Saturday, he told the Qatar-based broadcaster that the world was "witnessing failure in Iraq".
Herein US really refers to the Bush administration.A senior US state department official has said that the US has shown "arrogance and stupidity" in Iraq.
Alberto Fernandez made the remarks during an interview with Arabic television station al-Jazeera.
The state department says Mr Fernandez was quoted incorrectly - but BBC Arabic language experts say Mr Fernandez did indeed use the words.
One consideration - is the NY Times accurately with respect to the Sunni insurgency being as potent as ever? If so, progress is not being made. And if the Iraqi army is not going into the field, it ain't working.BAGHDAD, Oct. 24 — In trying to build support for the American strategy in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr. said Tuesday that the Iraqi military could be expected to take over the primary responsibility for securing the country within 12 to 18 months.
But that laudable goal seems far removed from the violence-plagued streets of Iraq’s capital, where American forces have taken the lead in trying to protect the city and American soldiers substantially outnumber Iraqi ones.
Given the rise in sectarian killings, a Sunni-based insurgency that appears to be as potent as ever and an Iraqi security establishment that continues to have difficulties deploying sufficient numbers of motivated and proficient forces in Baghdad, General Casey’s target seems to be an increasingly heroic assumption.
On paper, Iraq has substantial security forces. The Pentagon noted in an August report to Congress that Iraq had more than 277,000 troops and police officers, including some 115,000 army combat soldiers.
But those figures, which have often been cited at Pentagon news conferences as an indicator of progress and a potential exit strategy for American troops, paint a distorted picture. When the deep-seated reluctance of many soldiers to serve outside their home regions, leaves of absence and AWOL rates are taken into account, only a portion of the Iraqi Army is readily available for duty in Baghdad and other hot spots.
Hah! Hippies did not order contractors and equipment and had them sitting around doing nothing while collecting huge paychecks.Overhead costs have consumed more than half the budget of some reconstruction projects in Iraq, according to a government estimate released yesterday, leaving far less money than expected to provide the oil, water and electricity needed to improve the lives of Iraqis.
The report provided the first official estimate that, in some cases, more money was being spent on housing and feeding employees, completing paperwork and providing security than on actual construction.
Those overhead costs have ranged from under 20 percent to as much as 55 percent of the budgets, according to the report, by the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction. On similar projects in the United States, those costs generally run to a few percent.
The highest proportion of overhead was incurred in oil-facility contracts won by KBR Inc., the Halliburton subsidiary formerly known as Kellogg Brown & Root, which has frequently been challenged by critics in Congress and elsewhere.
The actual costs for many projects could be even higher than the estimates, the report said, because the United States has not properly tracked how much such expenses have taken from the $18.4 billion of taxpayer-financed reconstruction approved by Congress two years ago.
The report said the prime reason was not the need to provide security, though those costs have clearly risen in the perilous environment, and are a burden that both contractors and American officials routinely blame for such increases.
Instead, the inspector general pointed to a simple bureaucratic flaw: the United States ordered the contractors and their equipment to Iraq and then let them sit idle for months at a time.
It depends on the point of view.Astronuc said:Based on conflicting reports and what I hear from inside and outside the administration and military, I don't see Iraq getting better.