# Is Hawking’s new idea on Black Hole original or adopted?

Dear lovers of Physics Forum,

Hawking’s statement on his new theory of Black Hole, which he delivered at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland on Wednesday the 21st July 2004 stunned the world when he admitted his mistake which he had been carrying for about 30 years.

What a statement of one of the living legends on the theory of Black Hole! It was highlighted with bold captions by the majority newspapers of the world with a sense of high pride for a renowned Cambridge University Physicist Prof. Hawking from England. The media took his statement as bold and thrilling despite that his statement would create a revolution in the entire science of Cosmos and the serious students of science shall have to build a new picture of the Black Hole in their minds now by updating the new aspects of Black Hole as given by Hawking.

I as member of the SAROUL (Scientific Advance Research of Universe & Life) would have joined the world media and the people of United Kingdom in this moment of pride as the world has felt on the disclosure of the mystery of Black Holes, but I pray excuse in this context since the so-called exposure by the living legend of England is not original.

I have my personal knowledge that this theory has been adopted from the Hypothesis of Dr. Raj Baldev which he released in October 2003 in the form of a book titled ‘Two Big Bangs Created the Universe’ (Formed in Eternal Space). This book was presented to President of India Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam on 19th March 2004 and there was a detailed discussion held between Dr. Abdul Kalam and the author where I was also present during the discussion between the two great scientists.

Dr. Abdul Kalam, President of India, who himself is a great scientist appreciated, discussed and suggested the world with a message that the theory in this book should be debated so that the knowledge could be updated. He also complimented “if there could be Chandrasekhar Limit why there can’t be Raj Baldev Limit.”

Dr. Raj Baldev, Indian Cosmo Theorist, was inspired in 1990 by Stephen Hawking’s appeal made by him in his book ‘A Brief History of Time’ which is self-explanatory and reproduced as under:

“However, if we discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question why it is that we and the Universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we would know the mind of God.”

In the above mentioned book authored by Dr. Raj Baldev, he has analyzed all important laws given by Hawking in ‘A Brief History of Time’ (1988) and pointed out all the lapses of his theory and appreciated those points where he was right. It is perhaps the only book authored by Dr. Raj Baldev in the world that has dealt with Hawking’s views including mystery of Black Holes in the most detailed manner. Whatever the conclusion Dr. Raj Baldev gave in his book, Stephen Hawking adopted the same relating to Black Hole and released to the world that he was mistaken for about 30 years but sorry to note that he blundered not to mention the original theory of Dr Raj Baldev from where he is alleged to have got the new idea with complete theory.

In this connection, I would like to say that Hawking’s theory has been challenged by Dr. Raj Baldev and a legal notice to this effect has since been served upon him by Mr. C.L.Sahu, Advocate Supreme Court of India through British High Commission, New Delhi for having violated the copyright of Dr. Raj Baldev. Stephen Hawking has been called upon in the notice to clarify his position and tender an apology for having omitted the acknowledgement of the theory of Dr. Raj Baldev in his papers that he distributed in the 17th International Conference held in Dublin on 21st July, or face the damages of 500,000 US $. http://www.internationalreporter.com/scripts/headDetails.asp?id=235 It is really unfortunate that the research work of Dr. Raj Baldev, Chairman SAROUL, in which he pointed out the lapses of laws and views of Newton, Albert Einstein, Chandrasekhar and Stephen Hawking relating to Black Hole has been ignored by some sections of the media just because Dr. Raj Baldev is an Indian? In my opinion as member of the SAROUL, Dr Raj Baldev is the most valuable asset of the world who has traced the history of the origin of the Universe in a period of 11 years, which so far stands matching with all the future findings by different astronomers of the world which have appeared in the press from time to time. His interviews which appeared on websites since July 2003 have also proved accurate and to the point. It is now left to the readers to compare the above facts and derive your own result in the larger interest of Cosmo students in particular and the world science in general. Shashi Last edited by a moderator: ## Answers and Replies Related Other Physics Topics News on Phys.org shashi said: Dear lovers of Physics Forum, Hawking’s statement on his new theory of Black Hole, which he delivered at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland on Wednesday the 21st July 2004 stunned the world when he admitted his mistake which he had been carrying for about 30 years. What a statement of one of the living legends on the theory of Black Hole! It was highlighted with bold captions by the majority newspapers of the world with a sense of high pride for a renowned Cambridge University Physicist Prof. Hawking from England. The media took his statement as bold and thrilling despite that his statement would create a revolution in the entire science of Cosmos and the serious students of science shall have to build a new picture of the Black Hole in their minds now by updating the new aspects of Black Hole as given by Hawking. I as member of the SAROUL (Scientific Advance Research of Universe & Life) would have joined the world media and the people of United Kingdom in this moment of pride as the world has felt on the disclosure of the mystery of Black Holes, but I pray excuse in this context since the so-called exposure by the living legend of England is not original. I have my personal knowledge that this theory has been adopted from the Hypothesis of Dr. Raj Baldev which he released in October 2003 in the form of a book titled ‘Two Big Bangs Created the Universe’ (Formed in Eternal Space). This book was presented to President of India Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam on 19th March 2004 and there was a detailed discussion held between Dr. Abdul Kalam and the author where I was also present during the discussion between the two great scientists. Dr. Abdul Kalam, President of India, who himself is a great scientist appreciated, discussed and suggested the world with a message that the theory in this book should be debated so that the knowledge could be updated. He also complimented “if there could be Chandrasekhar Limit why there can’t be Raj Baldev Limit.” http://www.internationalreporter.com/SCRIPTS/headDetails.asp?id=116 Dr. Raj Baldev, Indian Cosmo Theorist, was inspired in 1990 by Stephen Hawking’s appeal made by him in his book ‘A Brief History of Time’ which is self-explanatory and reproduced as under: “However, if we discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question why it is that we and the Universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we would know the mind of God.” In the above mentioned book authored by Dr. Raj Baldev, he has analyzed all important laws given by Hawking in ‘A Brief History of Time’ (1988) and pointed out all the lapses of his theory and appreciated those points where he was right. It is perhaps the only book authored by Dr. Raj Baldev in the world that has dealt with Hawking’s views including mystery of Black Holes in the most detailed manner. Whatever the conclusion Dr. Raj Baldev gave in his book, Stephen Hawking adopted the same relating to Black Hole and released to the world that he was mistaken for about 30 years but sorry to note that he blundered not to mention the original theory of Dr Raj Baldev from where he is alleged to have got the new idea with complete theory. In this connection, I would like to say that Hawking’s theory has been challenged by Dr. Raj Baldev and a legal notice to this effect has since been served upon him by Mr. C.L.Sahu, Advocate Supreme Court of India through British High Commission, New Delhi for having violated the copyright of Dr. Raj Baldev. Stephen Hawking has been called upon in the notice to clarify his position and tender an apology for having omitted the acknowledgement of the theory of Dr. Raj Baldev in his papers that he distributed in the 17th International Conference held in Dublin on 21st July, or face the damages of 500,000 US$.

It is really unfortunate that the research work of Dr. Raj Baldev, Chairman SAROUL, in which he pointed out the lapses of laws and views of Newton, Albert Einstein, Chandrasekhar and Stephen Hawking relating to Black Hole has been ignored by some sections of the media just because Dr. Raj Baldev is an Indian?

In my opinion as member of the SAROUL, Dr Raj Baldev is the most valuable asset of the world who has traced the history of the origin of the Universe in a period of 11 years, which so far stands matching with all the future findings by different astronomers of the world which have appeared in the press from time to time. His interviews which appeared on websites since July 2003 have also proved accurate and to the point.

It is now left to the readers to compare the above facts and derive your own result in the larger interest of Cosmo students in particular and the world science in general.

Shashi

It is not Hawkings fault that his work deriving Blackhole Radiative has yeilded a reversal of interpretation, this stems from the Big-Bang theory, ultimately derived from Einstiens Field Equations.

Post was interpreted as a 'Personal attack' by self-adjoint.

Last edited by a moderator:
It is really unfortunate that the research work of Dr. Raj Baldev, Chairman SAROUL, in which he pointed out the lapses of laws and views of Newton, Albert Einstein, Chandrasekhar and Stephen Hawking relating to Black Hole has been ignored by some sections of the media just because Dr. Raj Baldev is an Indian?
Ramanujan independently derived much of Western number theory and his genius is recognizied worldwide to this day. Bose's name leads that of Albert Einstein regarding the much praised physical phenomena based on Bose-Einstein statistics. Chandrasekhar is given full credit and great respect in the history of physics for his theory on white dwarfs. Time will tell if Baldev has earned his place beside truly remarkable Indian scientists.

Historically, the greatest known scientists are the ones who stoll the biggest ideas from others. Hawking is no different. This problem is in fact unscientifical, it is the problem of the ego. No human is above it, except a few enlightened ones.

I believe Dr. Baldev was correct, and Hawking should be ashamed of himself.

Olias said:
It is not Hawkings fault that his work deriving Blackhole Radiative has yeilded a reversal of interpretation, this stems from the Big-Bang theory, ultimately derived from Einstiens Field Equations.

Post was interpreted as a 'Personal attack' by self-adjoint.
I believe this is more a case of indirect simultaneous discovery than it is theft of intellectual property. By Hawking's account of the discovery of his mistake, it happened slowly when his team at Cambridge continued to be unable to corroborate Hawking's original mathematical constructs for his Black Hole Theory. Having his team go back and rework the numbers for weeks on end, then having them to write a computer program that could "solve" his equations proved to be no less futile...it was in this continued futility to "prove" his theory that Hawking finally realized his mistake. To my way of thinking this situation is really no different than that in history when Darwin and Wallace both independently came to the same conclusions about Evolution. I cannot see the reason for all this fuss...and how does this situation come to be reduced to racial bigotry? I am sorry but I just don't get it.

Last edited:
It all comes down to a matter of pride ego. Perhaps Dr. Raj Baldev is too eager for recognition or he places fame more important than the theory itself. He should be proud that someone actually adopted his idea and not accusing Hawkings of theft of idea. Hawkings also should acknowledge Dr. Raj Baldev for his idea. Then again, is it really that important as to who is being acknowledge for the effort than the fruits of the labour itself as in being the theory?

Chronos
Gold Member
It appears history does repeat itself. Einstein was accused of 'lifting' relativity from Poincare, Maxwell, Lorentz, etc. But, it was Einstein who put it all together along with the mathematical formalisms. He too was criticized for not giving enough credit where credit was due.

I have learned over the years to see:

Most ideas are not original. There are too many in the scientific community that believe that the discovery process is linear. Most dicoveries are rediscoveries.

That even scientific ideas are political and nationalistic in nature.

Well, most discoveries are not just rediscoveries, they are just justifications of old concepts.

If S.Hawking had adopted the idea then he must acknowledge it. Buit the step Dr. Bladev has taken to sue him for US\$500000 is not right it seem that he want some publicity or need some money. as far as the copyright is concerned the jury must decide hoe much fine it impose.

Gza
Dr. Baldev decided to make some vague, empty comment on black holes without any support whatsoever, and now wants to steal credit from a legit researcher? For those of you who don't know who Dr. Baldev is, he's an astrologist (with a smattering of knowledge of astronomy and some physics.) Why should anyone take him seriously? And for the record, this shouldn't be some sort of racial thing. I'm Indian as well, and for the life of me couldn't see how racism could be involved in this issue.

The world we live in

I believe Shashi is right to support Dr. Raj Baldev — with a good article here in PhysicsForums — and help us get all the appropriate information on the world we live in.

According to Hollywood a movie is worth being made when the nasty mean main character changes his/her behavior for whatever reason and becomes outright pleasant in the end. People love that kind of stuff.

When a man with the stature of prof Hawking changes one of his ideas, it is note worthy. Sky shattering? No, because it is just one person changing his mind. But the attention given to him is given because of who he is and what he has established. The question is, is prof Hawking the first to proclaim his new stand? The answer is no, it is more the opposite. The news worthy information is that he 'caved' in to oppositional information. Very much to his honor, prof Hawking took the information that was in front of him to establish/redirect his thoughts on our universe. He did not get stuck because he had said A first, when it should have been B. Whether or not the person who first stated the oppositional information needs to be mentioned is a question all to itself. Who would be that person? Would it be the person(s) he was in opposition with for thirty years? Is Dr. Raj Baldev the one to mention it? Someone else?

I think that the prominent work of Dr. Baldev's work on this exists because of prof Hawking, and it does therefore not merit absolute need to be mentioned when - news flash - prof Hawking changes his mind. But I do feel nevertheless strongly that it is good to acknowledge here that Dr. Raj Baldev's work stands - I am glad Shashi reminded us of his work.

Let's keep our eyes on the ball. The work is not really about who was first (though this has importance on the personal/institutional/regional level), the work is about the universe we live in.

For those of you who don't know who Dr. Baldev is, he's an astrologist (with a smattering of knowledge of astronomy and some physics.)
That wildy changes things. I think any of us can make assumptions that may prove to be true.

For example the Dogon people of Africa knew of the existence of a star well before it was confirmed by Modern Science. Their cosmology has the same from same framework as modern cosmology. The difference is mathematical formalism and metaphor.

This debate between Dr. Baldev and Hawking it's about ego. This isn't about science at all.

Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
The knowledge of the DOgon, as discussed in the book The Sirius Mystery, is HIGHLY suspect. Many unwarranted conclusions and implications in the book. No evidence that Dogon knew more than they could have learned from Europeans, in spite of claims to the contrary.

The knowledge of the DOgon, as discussed in the book The Sirius Mystery, is HIGHLY suspect. Many unwarranted conclusions and implications in the book. No evidence that Dogon knew more than they could have learned from Europeans, in spite of claims to the contrary.
Yeah, that sure does justifiy the ignorance of issues outside their concerns.
H-bar None said:
I have learned over the years to see:

Most ideas are not original. There are too many in the scientific community that believe that the discovery process is linear. Most dicoveries are rediscoveries.

That even scientific ideas are political and nationalistic in nature.
Yes, most ideas are not original! That is the fun of my discovery. It is original! Oh, not because I am such an original thinker but rather because the academy is so self absorbed in it's own studies it absolutely refuses to look. The academy will never admit of the strength of my observations because it points out so completely their stupidity. Right now I suspect there are many of them who are merely looking for an out. A way of saying what I have discovered is obvious without actually admitting the discovery itself. Someday, it will be a "rediscovery"; but I am sure it will be long after I am dead.

For those who don't know what I am talking about, take a look at

http://home.jam.rr.com/dicksfiles/Explain/Explain.htm [Broken]

and, after that, take a look at Chapter two of my presentation "The Foundations of Physical Reality"

http://home.jam.rr.com/dicksfiles/reality/Contents.htm [Broken]

If you have any interest in understanding the whole issue, talk to me!

Looking to hear to some intelligent people -- Dick

Last edited by a moderator: