Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

News Is Israel a Rogue State?

  1. Dec 1, 2009 #1
    I meant rogue of course, please pardon my dyslexia.

    http://us.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2009/11/29/newton.israel.rogue.cnn". I'm curious see the opinions of everyone here, so please vote in the poll and post your thoughts on the matter.

    I agree with the two scholars interviewed, while the politician's argument seems absurd. Of course there are some who are challenging Israel's legitimacy to exist at all, but I'm at a loss as to how one could reasonably blame them for Israel's refusal to even consider a two-state solution on the basis of international law. Does anyone here think Regev's argument makes any sense at all?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 1, 2009 #2

    mgb_phys

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    Well I suppose the desert bits are a bit pink - but not really rouge.
     
  4. Dec 1, 2009 #3

    DaveC426913

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009
  5. Dec 1, 2009 #4
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    How about next people start respecting the intent of the question, as is obvious in the context, rather than nitpicking the typo?
     
  6. Dec 1, 2009 #5
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    You know, I always thought Etobicoke was a pretty rogue area... not even gonna lie. Is it part of Toronto? Who knows. Not I.

    As for Israel... I do not think that Israel is a rogue state. Isn't a rogue state one that threatens world peace?

    EDIT: I didn't even notice the typo LOL.
     
  7. Dec 1, 2009 #6

    Astronuc

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    I think the answer will depend on who one asks.
     
  8. Dec 1, 2009 #7
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    Also a rouge state is defined:

    and so Israel doesn't fit that description.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state
     
  9. Dec 1, 2009 #8

    DaveC426913

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    It's how we show you we like you. :!!)
     
  10. Dec 1, 2009 #9
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    I don't rightly think Israel threatens world peace, but I've never seen such a standard set for the term. Granted I don't think they are currently being beneficial to world peace either, or to themselves for that matter. Anyway, in contrast to the narrow definition waht presented from a Wiki entry which absurdly cites an article from A. Q. Khan to support it, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rogue+state?r=75":

    I contend that fits Israel to a T, the Gaza massacre and Israels refusal to respect the recommendations of the Goldstone Report on the matter which is backed by the vast majority of UN member states being just one recent example of this.

    Of course, if everyone was going to agree it wouldn't have been worth making a thread about. Any chance you'd present your opinion?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  11. Dec 1, 2009 #10
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    Well then, I suppose I'll make a point to nitpick your comments while ignoring your intent in the future. :grumpy:
     
  12. Dec 2, 2009 #11

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    And more importantly, one's definition of "rogue state".

    Kyleb, in order for this to be a productive thread, you're going to need to give us a clear definition of what you mean aby "rogue state".
    Confusingly worded run-on-sentence issues aside, I am curious as to how you can believe/assert that Israel "refus[es] to even consider a two-state solution" when it has been actively discussing and negotiating the issue on and off for close to two decades:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2009
  13. Dec 2, 2009 #12

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    In my view, respect is a mutual condition and Israel is far more respectful of her neighbors than they are of her. Viewed in a vacuum, yes, Israel doesn't have much respect for her neighbors. But viewed in context, Israel has much more than her neighbors have for her. As a result, I consider such a characterization based soley on that definition to be unfair and inappropriate.

    In other words: Israel treats with respect, those countries that treat her with respect. And those that it disrespects, it (typically) disrespects fairly.
     
  14. Dec 2, 2009 #13

    tiny-tim

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    From http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchiv... Lives- Israel-s anti-terrorist fence - Answ"
    Pro rata, 900 people would be about 45,000 people in the USA. :frown:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  15. Dec 2, 2009 #14
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    I didn't expect it would be a point of contention, but I hope everyone here can abide the definition as explained in the dictionary.com entry I cited above.

    It's a complex sentence; the first part noting Regev's argument from the CNN clip, and the latter iterating my contention to it.

    You left out my "on the basis of international law" qualifier, which Israel's "two-state" terms consistently fall short of.

    I agree on the first part, but am at a loss as to how one could reasonably figure the latter. Any chance you'd explain the basis for your position here?
     
  16. Dec 2, 2009 #15
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    Yes it is horrible, as is the http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2008/36-2009.html" [Broken] before that. Pro rata that is about 225,000 people in the USA. I'd like to see and end to that madness, which support just two-state solution to the conflict on the basis of international law, for the sake of Israelis along with everyone else.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  17. Dec 2, 2009 #16

    tiny-tim

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    What on earth are you talking about? How do Israel's proposals even remotely contravene international law? :confused:
    That's the Palestinians' figure. Israel's figure of civilians killed is about 300.
    From your own link (http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp") …

    "Palestinians killed by Palestinians: 593 (Gaza Strip 458, West Bank 135)"

    Pro rata that is about 150,000 people in the USA. :frown:

    The chief difference between Israel and the Palestinians is that the Palestinians try to kill as many innocent civilians as possible, while the Israelis try to kill as few innocent civilians as possible. :redface:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  18. Dec 2, 2009 #17
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    I think that, as dictionary definitions tend to be, it is a bit simplistic and vague.

    A state may be considered rogue, to have not respected other nations in its international actions, if the state refuses to abide the opinions/suggestions/will of the international community. 'Rogue' carries a negative connotation though, that what the entity is doing is wrong, and I do not think that a state who refuses to respect the will of the international community, if that will is oppressive and inequitable for instance, is necessarily wrong. So we have in this a definition that is based on opinion.

    A better definition may be that a state is considered 'rogue' if it has flouted international law. This is still based in some part on opinion but at least theoretically it is a dispassionate democratically constructed measure rather than being based on some transitory national interest or inflamed righteousness.

    So perhaps the best measure is whether or not Israel has willfully broken international law?
     
  19. Dec 2, 2009 #18
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    They flagrantly contravene international law by ignoring the rights of the refugees and by refusing Palestinians' right to sovereignty over various portions of the West Bank. This is evidenced by Israel's votes against the UNGA's http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/a06f2943c226015c85256c40005d359c/73d3c4b4b95d2ff285257551005a67f0?OpenDocument" [Broken], Israel having done so every year for decades.

    Of course it is, just like the figure you presented for Israelis murdered is the Israeli figure.

    Sure, but the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights figure I cited is much closer to the other reports, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8245433.stm" [Broken].

    I'm familiar with the figures, and http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804" [Broken] accounts for a large chunk of the one you cite. I'm ashamed that my tax dollars helped fuel such madness.

    That claim stands in contradiction to the the much higher civilian death toll on the Palestinian side in general, and more specifically to investigations such as the http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf" [Broken] which found that:

    Of course they also found that terrorist groups such as Hamas targeted Israeli civilians too, but two wrongs doesn't make anything right.

    I don't see how one could rightly consider a state's conduct disrespectful if they do show regard for international law, so the messure is the same to me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  20. Dec 2, 2009 #19
    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    I don't see any "rogue" about israel. As far as I'm aware, it's a legitimate state no matter how one defines the parameters. If israel is "subjugating" their palestinian minorities---then so be it. After all, it's "stolen" land won fairly in a war. But if it's a perpetual war, and might makes right....then so be it too. The onus for peace is not on Israel, it's with the people who live amongst it looking to wipe it out.
     
  21. Dec 2, 2009 #20

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Re: Is Israel a Rouge State?

    You can't be serious.
    Unlikely - it is a very weak and simplistic definition, which you yourself have already wavered from, using "flagrantly contravene international law" in another post.....
    "On the basis of international law" isn't part of the dictionary definition..... So you'll need to explain what you mean by "international law" and show how they "flagrantly contravene" it. Also, I'm sure you must know that the idea of "international law" is pretty loose.
    Sure. On the point you've already raised, the two-state solution, Israel is more willing to consider it than her neighbors. Arafat's statement aside, Israel's neighbors have been pretty consistent in not recognizing Israel's right to exist. And talk is great, but actions are better: Israel has taken the action of ceding territory it won in a defensive war, without a promise of cessation of hostilities from the enemy in that war! Absurd, but it shows a commitment to peace that Israel's enemies have never come anywhere close to matching.

    Second, Israel's neighbors consistently purposely target civilians (in short, it's that pesky terrorism thing - yeah, it really exists). Israel does not. And don't pull out the body count ratio argument: it's nonsense. It fails to recognize the reality of the tactical situation and the intent of the actions being taken by both sides.
    So you are claiming a reslution is a binding international law? Really? Could you explain how that works, please? From the wiki definition: "In a house of a legislature, the term non-binding resolution refers to measures that do not become laws." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_(law [Broken])

    The beautiful thing - for Israel's enemies - about UN General Assembly resolutions is that all countries, rogue or not, stand on equal footing in the eyes of the UN and as a result, there have been a number of rediculously biased resolutions passed by it, including the one you linked. If they were actually laws and if they were actually legitimate, they'd be pretty damning. But they aren't either.

    That the rogue states of the world can gang up on Israel (or anyone else) - that the inmates can take over the asylum - is the biggest flaw in the UN and will probably eventually be its downfall.
    See: North Korea. Very little of what they have done could really be considered true violations of international law. What makes them rogue is more their attitude, and that's what "respect" implies to me in that definition you first posted. But if violating international law was what you really meant, you should have explained it instead of posting the simplistic definition that just said "respect".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook




Similar Discussions: Is Israel a Rogue State?
  1. Rogue Waves (Replies: 19)

  2. The Israel Lobby (Replies: 29)

Loading...