News Is Israel 'special'?

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Zero

I've been around here since the last days of PF V1. Since my first days, I have noticed a knee-jerk reaction to Israel, and the Jewish people in general, that has absolutely nthing to do with reality. For many people, either they hate Israel with a huge passion, or they feel that any criticism of Israel makes you a racist.

Can someone explain it to me? Why is it that people cannot see that, just like any other country, Israel can be wonderful or horrible, depending on the context? How can people pretend that Israel is blameless in their dealings with Palestine? And how can others pretend that there aren't Israelis who are willing to compromise with the Palestinians, willing to live in harmony with the Arab world, if only the suicide bombings would stop?
 
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Why have all the Muslims in this country I've spoken to made out Israel (and Sharon) to be terrorists, when non-Muslims generally have a much less biased perspective and usually see both sides of the argument (with Palestine)?
 

Zero

In the UK, views may be balanced. In the US, there seem to be alot of people who see Israel as being some sort of Holy Land, and perfect because of it.
 

BoulderHead

Originally posted by Zero
In the UK, views may be balanced. In the US, there seem to be alot of people who see Israel as being some sort of Holy Land, and perfect because of it.
From my own experiences I'd have to agree. It doesn't just stop with believing that Israel is special but extends to Jewish people too (as I think someone mentioned in another thread). The majority of the Christians I have ever spoken to on this matter held such views. These are racist views, IMO, and often translate into anti-anothergroupofpeople. I hold no individual or collective group of individuals inherently more worthy than any other. When America is accused of being ‘pro Israel’ and biased, I think it is merely the simple truth.
 

damgo

It's the human tribal impulse to slice up the world into "us" and "them." Then it is very comforting to think that our side is justified, and their side is to blame. Happens on almost every issue, on both sides. This forum provides lots of excellent examples. :wink: eg

Many Moslems construct a worldview where imperialist Zionists came and took their land, and now oppress the Palestinians in order to protect their ill-gotten gains.

Many Jews construct a worldview where they are merely trying to live in peace and defend themselves against terrorism from the Palestinians, who will nver make any concessions and only be satisfied with their complete annihilation.

The same thing happens in the USA with liberals vs conservatives... and once such a worldview has been created, it becomes easy to see every new piece of information as supporting it. Those that disagree, well, they're either stupid, victims of deception, or downright evil.

Read Anne Coulter (right) and Ted Rall (left) for extreme examples of this.... most liberal/conservative writings and opinions do basically the same thing, but to a lesser degree and with more intelligence.

my 2 cents,
damgo
 

BoulderHead

Zero

Thanks for the responses, folks... Isreal seems to be a hot issue for alot of people, and reasoned discussion is often difficult.
 

russ_watters

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Originally posted by Zero
Thanks for the responses, folks... Isreal seems to be a hot issue for alot of people, and reasoned discussion is often difficult.
It is certainly a hot issue and neither side is completely blameless, but for me, its pretty clear: Only one side of the conflict seeks to annihilate the other. Only one side specifically targets civilians.
 

Zero

Originally posted by russ_watters
It is certainly a hot issue and neither side is completely blameless, but for me, its pretty clear: Only one side of the conflict seeks to annihilate the other. Only one side specifically targets civilians.
Ok...which side are you talking about?


(Do you guys see my point? One side must be 1000 times worse, right? But which one? It depends on who you ask...)
 

drag

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Greetings !
Originally posted by damgo
Many Moslems construct a worldview where
imperialist Zionists came and took their
land, and now oppress the Palestinians in
order to protect their ill-gotten gains.
Indeed.
Originally posted by damgo
Many Jews construct a worldview where they
are merely trying to live in peace and
defend themselves against terrorism from
the Palestinians, who will nver make any
concessions and only be satisfied with their
complete annihilation.
Indeed.
Originally posted by damgo
Those that disagree, well, they're either
stupid, victims of deception, or downright evil.
How about - simply wrong ?
(What you discribed above is quite correct,
so what's the problem ? (It is correct
because you included words like most/many.)

Things get a LOT more complicated when you
project this local thing upon international
politics which strives to change that
according to other countries' internal intrests.
In general, the US does the right thing because
it views the situation just as it is. Unfortunetly,
that does not sit well and apply to many other
countries because international politics and
internal intrests of many kind are very powerful,
ASPECIALY when it concerns one of the most wide
spread religions on the planet and when the arab
countries have such strong material effect.

The Islamic revolution which occured within the
past half a century in so many Islamic communities
does not honor this old and respected religion.

Peace and long life.
 

russ_watters

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Originally posted by Zero
Ok...which side are you talking about?
You don't KNOW? [?] Zero, it is now and always has been the policy of the PLO, PA, or whatever they call themselves now that Israel must not be allowed to exist.
 

Zero

Originally posted by russ_watters
You don't KNOW? [?] Zero, it is now and always has been the policy of the PLO, PA, or whatever they call themselves now that Israel must not be allowed to exist.
And what about teh Israelis who pretend the Palestinians don't exist, and bulldoze their homes to bulid more illegal settlements?
 

kat

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Originally posted by Zero
And what about teh Israelis who pretend the Palestinians don't exist, and bulldoze their homes to bulid more illegal settlements?
hmm I am curious which Israelis you know who pretend Palestinians don't exist? and which homes is that exactly wich are bulldozed to build illegal settlements? and which of those settlements do you term illegal, and under which law do you apply that?

Please, also show me which Israeli state document it is that declares no peace until all of the Palestinian designated areas in their entirety, are wiped off the face of the earth?
 

Zero

Originally posted by kat
hmm I am curious which Israelis you know who pretend Palestinians don't exist? and which homes is that exactly wich are bulldozed to build illegal settlements? and which of those settlements do you term illegal, and under which law do you apply that?

Please, also show me which Israeli state document it is that declares no peace until all of the Palestinian designated areas in their entirety, are wiped off the face of the earth?
Kat, you've always struck me as one of those 'Support Israel, right or wrong' people. If you have somehow managed to be online for this long without knowing about the U.N. resolution that sets the legal boundaries of Israel, and the settlements that have been built in those illegally occupied areas, nothing I say will matter. International law created Israel, and Israel has violated international law ever since.

As far as Israelis who don't want peace, you can pretty much look at the entire Likud party,
 

kyleb

as for what land his is terming illegal, i consider everything that goes beyond the 1947 boarders as can be seen http://www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/palestine.html#2. also, here is some pictures of those Palestinian houses bulldozed, and some information about an American girl who got in the way:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

oh, and if you think you are standing up for the Jewish people by supporting Israel; you are http://www.muhajabah.com/images/azj/azj10.jpg [Broken].

lastly, people are having a hard time locating nukes in Iraq, however that is hardly an issue in http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/strategic_israel_dw.htm [Broken]. granted, you would be hard pressed to hear about any of that watching foxnews or other major media; i was shocked to stumble across that msnbc link and i highly doubt you could even find it from their frontpage.
 
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russ_watters

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Originally posted by Zero
And what about teh Israelis who pretend the Palestinians don't exist, and bulldoze their homes to bulid more illegal settlements?
Zero, I never said Israel was perfect, but what you are saying is not even close to the policy of genocide held by their enemies. You're trying to equate two things that aren't even close to the same thing.

Israel accepts in principle the existence of a Palestinian state and has NEVER advocated genocide to deal with the issue.

Let me say it again: The PLO (and Syria and Jordan, and until recently Egypt) advocates (demands) the annihilation of Israel.

Not surprising that no negotiated peace has ever worked in light of that requirement, is it?
 
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russ_watters

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Originally posted by kyleb
as for what land his is terming illegal, i consider everything that goes beyond the 1947 boarders as can be seen here.
I consider all land "occupied" by Israel to be Israel's land. It would be nice if Israel gave it back in exchange for peace, but until then they should hold on to it for the leverage. ALL of Israel's "occupied" lands were won in defensive wars that are arguably still underway. Hell, I think its FUNNY that every time Israel's enemies try to annihilate her, Israel gets more land. Maybe they should take the hint and stop attacking Israel.
 

kat

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Originally posted by Zero
Kat, you've always struck me as one of those 'Support Israel, right or wrong' people. If you have somehow managed to be online for this long without knowing about the U.N. resolution that sets the legal boundaries of Israel, and the settlements that have been built in those illegally occupied areas, nothing I say will matter. International law created Israel, and Israel has violated international law ever since.

As far as Israelis who don't want peace, you can pretty much look at the entire Likud party,
Well, this is wonderful. This is how we debate on this forum? name calling and evasion?

How about this zero, let's pass on the labels and the vague "if you don't know by now, I'm not going to tell you" replies and support your argument.

This is your statement
And what about teh Israelis who pretend the Palestinians don't exist, and bulldoze their homes to bulid more illegal settlements?
and these are my questions (note that I've numbered them in order to simplify it for you):

1. I am curious which Israelis you know who pretend Palestinians don't exist?
2.and which homes is that exactly which are bulldozed to build Illegal settlements?
3.and which of those settlements do you term illegal,
4.and under which law do you apply that?

5.Please, also show me which Israeli state document it is that declares no peace until all of the Palestinian designated areas in their entirety, are wiped off the face of the earth?
 
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kat

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BTW, Although in the sense that you are wanting to address Israel is not any more special then any other country, the people deserving of equal rights and also have a responsibility to consider human rights and respect of others,as we all do and as many of us fail to uphold..some fail to a greater extent then others.
However, certainly for some reason Israel MUST be special because it commands so much more attention then any other country with similar or even far more abominable situations.
Here are two very good articles that attempt to cover some of the reasons that Israel must be so very, very "special"

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/Articles/cotler.htm

http://www.indymedia.no/news/2003/03/6012.php [Broken]
 
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Zero

Sorry, Kat...I was out of line, I suppose...feel free to edit my post and get back to me.

Still, though...the illegal occupation of teh West Bank and Gaza strip are common knowledge, as are the bulldozing of homes for illegal Jewish settlements.

*I'm having serious issues with the UN website...I'll be back with with some details as they become available*
 
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kat

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Originally posted by Zero
Sorry, Kat...I was out of line, I suppose...feel free to edit my post and get back to me.

Still, though...the illegal occupation of teh West Bank and Gaza strip are common knowledge, as are the bulldozing of homes for illegal Jewish settlements.

*I'm having serious issues with the UN website...I'll be back with with some details as they become available*
Zero...I suppose we all get out of line, and I prefer to not edit anything..I do appreciate the gesture.

As you say the things are often cited as "common knowledge" and since they are so commonly known..as so many other things in this world that are "common"..surely it is not so difficult to answer my above questions?

*oops, sorry I missed the addition within the *'s, I'll wait for your next reply*
 
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Hurkyl

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also, here is some pictures of those Palestinian houses bulldozed, and some information about an American girl who got in the way:
I'm curious what the point of linking that article was. Are you trying to tap into Americans' paternal/maternal instincts to stir up an emotional hatred of the Israeli who "killed" her, and hoping that hatred gets projected onto Israel as a whole?

All I see in that article, once I get past the sensationalized introduction, is a bulldozer driver who didn't shoulder the burden of the recklessness of a girl who kept moving into the bulldozer's path... in the midst of a military occupation nonetheless.


oh, and if you think you are standing up for the Jewish people by supporting Israel; you are wrong.
Do you seriously think that's the only viable interpretation? What about:

"It's sad that the amount of prejiduce against Jews is so great that they feel the need to distance themselves from their homeland"
 
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kyleb

oh sure Hurkyl, and some people feel the need to distance themselves from their birthright to be a part of white supremacy groups simply because others have distaste for such things. is that sad to you as well Hurkyl?

seriously, how do you justify your assumption that they are even Israeli? besides, if they did have an issue with prejudice against them then the obvious answer would be to move to the Jewish state of Israel and support the Zionist movement from the inside, which is obviously not what they choose to do. most anti-Zionist Jews i know of were never a citizen of Israel, but like many people they do not like what is going on over there and more so they resent the fact that their common heritage is being used as justification. many of them are Orthodox Jews who believe that it is against the will of god to even set up a Jewish state before the coming of the messiah, let alone to do it by leveraging such an extreme military advantage.

also, i linked the article to show the bulldozing on illegally occupied territory as kat requested; i am not trying to stir up any hatred at all but i did have some hope that it might help put a rest to what i see as blind support for Israel and biased haltered towards Palestine.
 

Hurkyl

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Sorry for going on that rampage... I just have an innate urge to respond to things that seem to be overly biased! Allow me to officially redirect my outrage from you to the authors of that and similar articles. :smile:
 

kyleb

oh also russ, i find it hard to believe you looked at the shifts in boarders with anything even resembling objectivity when you call the occupation defensive. it is hardly a buffer zone; the most blatant example to contest your argument is how the boarder got pushed to a deep point into Palestine where the Jerusalem is now occupied.
 

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