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Is Israel 'special'?

  1. Apr 25, 2003 #1
    I've been around here since the last days of PF V1. Since my first days, I have noticed a knee-jerk reaction to Israel, and the Jewish people in general, that has absolutely nthing to do with reality. For many people, either they hate Israel with a huge passion, or they feel that any criticism of Israel makes you a racist.

    Can someone explain it to me? Why is it that people cannot see that, just like any other country, Israel can be wonderful or horrible, depending on the context? How can people pretend that Israel is blameless in their dealings with Palestine? And how can others pretend that there aren't Israelis who are willing to compromise with the Palestinians, willing to live in harmony with the Arab world, if only the suicide bombings would stop?
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 25, 2003 #2
    Why have all the Muslims in this country I've spoken to made out Israel (and Sharon) to be terrorists, when non-Muslims generally have a much less biased perspective and usually see both sides of the argument (with Palestine)?
  4. Apr 25, 2003 #3
    In the UK, views may be balanced. In the US, there seem to be alot of people who see Israel as being some sort of Holy Land, and perfect because of it.
  5. Apr 25, 2003 #4
    From my own experiences I'd have to agree. It doesn't just stop with believing that Israel is special but extends to Jewish people too (as I think someone mentioned in another thread). The majority of the Christians I have ever spoken to on this matter held such views. These are racist views, IMO, and often translate into anti-anothergroupofpeople. I hold no individual or collective group of individuals inherently more worthy than any other. When America is accused of being ‘pro Israel’ and biased, I think it is merely the simple truth.
  6. Apr 25, 2003 #5
    It's the human tribal impulse to slice up the world into "us" and "them." Then it is very comforting to think that our side is justified, and their side is to blame. Happens on almost every issue, on both sides. This forum provides lots of excellent examples. :wink: eg

    Many Moslems construct a worldview where imperialist Zionists came and took their land, and now oppress the Palestinians in order to protect their ill-gotten gains.

    Many Jews construct a worldview where they are merely trying to live in peace and defend themselves against terrorism from the Palestinians, who will nver make any concessions and only be satisfied with their complete annihilation.

    The same thing happens in the USA with liberals vs conservatives... and once such a worldview has been created, it becomes easy to see every new piece of information as supporting it. Those that disagree, well, they're either stupid, victims of deception, or downright evil.

    Read Anne Coulter (right) and Ted Rall (left) for extreme examples of this.... most liberal/conservative writings and opinions do basically the same thing, but to a lesser degree and with more intelligence.

    my 2 cents,
  7. Apr 25, 2003 #6
    Money well spent.
  8. Apr 25, 2003 #7
    Thanks for the responses, folks... Isreal seems to be a hot issue for alot of people, and reasoned discussion is often difficult.
  9. Apr 25, 2003 #8


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    It is certainly a hot issue and neither side is completely blameless, but for me, its pretty clear: Only one side of the conflict seeks to annihilate the other. Only one side specifically targets civilians.
  10. Apr 26, 2003 #9
    Ok...which side are you talking about?

    (Do you guys see my point? One side must be 1000 times worse, right? But which one? It depends on who you ask...)
  11. Apr 26, 2003 #10


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    Greetings !
    How about - simply wrong ?
    (What you discribed above is quite correct,
    so what's the problem ? (It is correct
    because you included words like most/many.)

    Things get a LOT more complicated when you
    project this local thing upon international
    politics which strives to change that
    according to other countries' internal intrests.
    In general, the US does the right thing because
    it views the situation just as it is. Unfortunetly,
    that does not sit well and apply to many other
    countries because international politics and
    internal intrests of many kind are very powerful,
    ASPECIALY when it concerns one of the most wide
    spread religions on the planet and when the arab
    countries have such strong material effect.

    The Islamic revolution which occured within the
    past half a century in so many Islamic communities
    does not honor this old and respected religion.

    Peace and long life.
  12. Apr 26, 2003 #11


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    You don't KNOW? [?] Zero, it is now and always has been the policy of the PLO, PA, or whatever they call themselves now that Israel must not be allowed to exist.
  13. Apr 26, 2003 #12
    And what about teh Israelis who pretend the Palestinians don't exist, and bulldoze their homes to bulid more illegal settlements?
  14. Apr 26, 2003 #13


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    hmm I am curious which Israelis you know who pretend Palestinians don't exist? and which homes is that exactly wich are bulldozed to build illegal settlements? and which of those settlements do you term illegal, and under which law do you apply that?

    Please, also show me which Israeli state document it is that declares no peace until all of the Palestinian designated areas in their entirety, are wiped off the face of the earth?
  15. Apr 26, 2003 #14
    Kat, you've always struck me as one of those 'Support Israel, right or wrong' people. If you have somehow managed to be online for this long without knowing about the U.N. resolution that sets the legal boundaries of Israel, and the settlements that have been built in those illegally occupied areas, nothing I say will matter. International law created Israel, and Israel has violated international law ever since.

    As far as Israelis who don't want peace, you can pretty much look at the entire Likud party,
  16. Apr 26, 2003 #15
    as for what land his is terming illegal, i consider everything that goes beyond the 1947 boarders as can be seen here. also, here is some pictures of those Palestinian houses bulldozed, and some information about an American girl who got in the way:


    oh, and if you think you are standing up for the Jewish people by supporting Israel; you are wrong.

    lastly, people are having a hard time locating nukes in Iraq, however that is hardly an issue in Israel. granted, you would be hard pressed to hear about any of that watching foxnews or other major media; i was shocked to stumble across that msnbc link and i highly doubt you could even find it from their frontpage.
  17. Apr 26, 2003 #16


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    Zero, I never said Israel was perfect, but what you are saying is not even close to the policy of genocide held by their enemies. You're trying to equate two things that aren't even close to the same thing.

    Israel accepts in principle the existence of a Palestinian state and has NEVER advocated genocide to deal with the issue.

    Let me say it again: The PLO (and Syria and Jordan, and until recently Egypt) advocates (demands) the annihilation of Israel.

    Not surprising that no negotiated peace has ever worked in light of that requirement, is it?
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2003
  18. Apr 26, 2003 #17


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    I consider all land "occupied" by Israel to be Israel's land. It would be nice if Israel gave it back in exchange for peace, but until then they should hold on to it for the leverage. ALL of Israel's "occupied" lands were won in defensive wars that are arguably still underway. Hell, I think its FUNNY that every time Israel's enemies try to annihilate her, Israel gets more land. Maybe they should take the hint and stop attacking Israel.
  19. Apr 26, 2003 #18


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    Well, this is wonderful. This is how we debate on this forum? name calling and evasion?

    How about this zero, let's pass on the labels and the vague "if you don't know by now, I'm not going to tell you" replies and support your argument.

    This is your statement
    and these are my questions (note that I've numbered them in order to simplify it for you):

    1. I am curious which Israelis you know who pretend Palestinians don't exist?
    2.and which homes is that exactly which are bulldozed to build Illegal settlements?
    3.and which of those settlements do you term illegal,
    4.and under which law do you apply that?

    5.Please, also show me which Israeli state document it is that declares no peace until all of the Palestinian designated areas in their entirety, are wiped off the face of the earth?
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2003
  20. Apr 26, 2003 #19


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    BTW, Although in the sense that you are wanting to address Israel is not any more special then any other country, the people deserving of equal rights and also have a responsibility to consider human rights and respect of others,as we all do and as many of us fail to uphold..some fail to a greater extent then others.
    However, certainly for some reason Israel MUST be special because it commands so much more attention then any other country with similar or even far more abominable situations.
    Here are two very good articles that attempt to cover some of the reasons that Israel must be so very, very "special"


  21. Apr 26, 2003 #20
    Sorry, Kat...I was out of line, I suppose...feel free to edit my post and get back to me.

    Still, though...the illegal occupation of teh West Bank and Gaza strip are common knowledge, as are the bulldozing of homes for illegal Jewish settlements.

    *I'm having serious issues with the UN website...I'll be back with with some details as they become available*
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2003
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