Is Israel 'special'?

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  • #26
russ_watters
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Originally posted by kyleb
boarder got pushed to a deep point into Palestine where the Jerusalem is now occupied.
Kyleb, there has never been a country called "Palestine." You can't occupy something that doesn't exist. Israel occupies parts of Syria and Jordan.

Interesting how the thread topic shifted here - let me get it back to my point:

Zero, are you saying that since Israel buldozes some homes that may or may not be on their land, it is ok for people to advocate their genocide?

Let me say it again since its the most important issue here: The PLO (and Syria and Jordan, and until recently Egypt) advocates (demands) the annihilation of Israel.
 
  • #27
Zero
Why is it, Russ, that by presenting another side, you assume that I support the opponents of Israel? Why can't I think that BOTH sides have alot to change about the way they opperate? I could talk about the horrors of suicide bombings, but EVERYONE talks about that. Far fewer people discuss the factions within Israel that would love nothing more to push the Palestinians into the ocean.
 
  • #28
Zero
jb,

You may be going for humor...don't. This is serious, and you are pretty close to the line on this one.
 
  • #29
damgo
Hmm....
  • It's not really true to say that Israel advocates a Palestinian state, even in principle. There have always been deep division about this: certainly the left-wing parties support the creation of one; but categorical rejection of any Palestinian state has long a plank of Likud and the right-wing parties. Sharon set a precedent a few years ago by coming out and saying he would support one; but then last year Netanyahu and other Likud leadership gave him the finger by voting to reaffirm the party's categorical opposition. (Netanyahu has said many times he will never support such a state.) Recently Sharon's govt demanded that the proposed road map not refer to an "independent" Palestianian state, but instead one with "limited attributes of sovreignty." Whatever that means. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s808096.htm [Broken]

    So I suppose whether Israel supports the existence of a Palestinian state depends on who's in charge -- the left yes, the center and center-right sort of, the right never.
  • The PLO has never advocated genocide, AFAIK. Their original charter denied the right of a Jewish state to exist, a far cry from genocide. God knows I wouldn't want to be a Jew under a government run by Arafat; but he and the PLO are people, not demons. Even the most extreme Islamist governments, like Khomeini's Iran, didn't resort to slaughtering their Jewish populations: they actually afforded them a small modicum of protection once it was clear they posed no threat to the Islamists' power.

    In 1993 Arafat and the PLO officialy recognized Israel's right to exist as part of Oslo. What that's worth... <shrugs> It's pretty clear that Arafat doesn't want a mutual peace, but there are many in the murky world of Palestinian politics who do. Unfortunately Arafat is still managing to hold all the cards.
  • I dunno what Zero meant, but kat surely you're aware of the various settlements that are illegal even under Israeli law? Like the one where that bizarre funeral chase started, a few months ago.
  • The UNSC resolution usually cited here is 242 -- that calls upon Israel to withdraw from the territories and for the Arab states to make peace and recognize Israel's existence. Neither of these things have happened, so I guess either everyone's in violation or no one is.
 
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  • #30
kat
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Originally posted by kyleb

also, i linked the article to show the bulldozing on illegally occupied territory as kat requested; i am not trying to stir up any hatred at all but i did have some hope that it might help put a rest to what i see as blind support for Israel and biased haltered towards Palestine.
Ummm, that's not what I requested..this is my statement: which homes is that exactly wich are bulldozed to build illegal settlements? and which of those settlements do you term illegal, and under which law do you apply that?

That home was not bulldozed to build an illegal settlement.

I'm not sure why you assume any support for Israel is "blind" or why you need to use the word "hatred" in regards to palestine. I support both a palestinian state and an israeli state. What I do not support is Arafat, hezbollah, hamas, the despicable PLO and other organizations that feast upon its own people, nor do I support purposeful spreading of hate propaganda or misleading diatribes that are essentially anti-semitic hidden behind deep concern for the palestinian people. If you have such deep concern you would be equally concerned for what a crooked leadership and very, very crooked terrorist organizations that have set themselves up in civilian palestinian areas and live, like ME mafia gangsters, off the violence and anger they create, but never, ever do I see any type of condemnation or discussion on this issue..which is at the very, very root of all other issues.
Until you equally address this problem, please take your "hate" and "blind" accusations and do you know what with them.
 
  • #31
kat
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Originally posted by damgo
[*] I dunno what Zero meant, but kat surely you're aware of the various settlements that are illegal even under Israeli law? Like the one where that bizarre funeral chase started, a few months ago.

[*] The UNSC resolution usually cited here is 242 -- that calls upon Israel to withdraw from the territories and for the Arab states to make peace and recognize Israel's existence. Neither of these things have happened, so I guess either everyone's in violation or no one is.[/list]
Damgo-There's a problem with how you present 242,primarily there is no "THE" the THE and all other limiting terms were purposely left out. Secondly, "everyone" is not in violation, Israel has already turned over 91% of the terrotories it occupied when it gave up Sinai in return for the required peace. Now that peace agreements have been signed with Egypt and Jordan the only remaining territories that are disputed are with Lebanon and Syria. Israel's conflict with Lebanon is a result of fighting after 1967 and is now not relevant to 242 Israel has said it would withdraw to the international border if a treaty is signed and the central government takes control of northern border areas that are now in the hands of terrorist organizations.

The dispute with Syria is over the Golan Heights. Syria refused even a limited peace treaty with Israel unless Israel first withdrew completely. Under 242, Israel has no obligation to retreat completely until there is a peace accord. The Palestinians are not mentioned anywhere in Resolution 242. They are only alluded to in the second clause of the second article of 242, which calls for "a just settlement of the refugee problem." Which would include all refugees both Arab and Jewish.
 
  • #32
kyleb
Originally posted by kat
Ummm, that's not what I requested..this is my statement: which homes is that exactly wich are bulldozed to build illegal settlements? and which of those settlements do you term illegal, and under which law do you apply that?

That home was not bulldozed to build an illegal settlement.
please look at this map again and note that the UN partition plan does not call for Israeli occupation of the Gaza strip.

Originally posted by kat
I'm not sure why you assume any support for Israel is "blind" or why you need to use the word "hatred" in regards to palestine.
well i was speaking generally there as i see it as a widespread problem. but as for you personally, things like the issue above lead me to my opinion.

Originally posted by kat
If you have such deep concern you would be equally concerned for what a crooked leadership and very, very crooked terrorist organizations that have set themselves up in civilian palestinian areas and live, like ME mafia gangsters, off the violence and anger they create, but never, ever do I see any type of condemnation or discussion on this issue..which is at the very, very root of all other issues.

Until you equally address this problem, please take your "hate" and "blind" accusations and do you know what with them.
it is not hatefulness or blindness as i have made no denial of the problems on the Palestinian side of the issue, i am trying to get equal concern from those who are not showing it. furthermore, i think it is a bit late to be pointing fingers as the ones who created Israel are mostly dead and gone but the fact is that Jewish people were living in that land of thousands of years without such issues; not until the formation of Israel did those organizations come to be. so how can you say the Palatines resistance is the root? is not the formation of Israel actually that not actually "the root" of this? i am not trying to insult you here by any means kat; as humans we are all blind to some things, and sometimes that can drive haltered. i am just calling it as i see it in the hopes that balance to this issue might be found; but i do not believe that is not going to happen so long as America keeps supporting Israel over Palistine the way we have been.


oh and russ, i think you know what i am talking about when i say Palestine regardless of the fact that it is not an official state. if you are not simply using political semantics to form a sophistical argument but truly don't know what i mean; look at http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/sartrejp/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/palestine-map.jpg.w180h257.jpg and subtract what is now Israil and you will have what i am referring to.
 
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  • #33
GENIERE
Kyleb:

Unfortunately your map does not support your argument. Most of what your map depicts comprised the Kingdom of Judea prior to the Roman Conquest. Pagan Rome finding the Jews a threat to their religion slaughtered and decimated the population. As a further affront to the Jews, the Romans imported Philistines as settlers. Philistine people were of Greek not Arabic origin. They were eventually assimilated into the region’s population and disappeared as an ethnic group. Palestine is derived from Philistine. Not even the name on the map is Arabic.

The Israelis are willing concede that the ‘Palestinians’ have justified claim to part of their heritage to form a Palestinian State. They are willing to cede and have ceded territory to form that state. The converse, unfortunately, is not true.

Regards
 
  • #34
kyleb, I don't see how the roman times are relevant. It doesn't matter whose ancestors were where.

--------------------------

Anyway, wasn't this thread NOT supposed to be about which side is wrong or right, or what the problem in the Israel/Palestine conflict is, BUT rather whether Israel should get some sort of special treatment?
 
  • #35
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zero
Why is it, Russ, that by presenting another side, you assume that I support the opponents of Israel? Why can't I think that BOTH sides have alot to change about the way they opperate? I could talk about the horrors of suicide bombings, but EVERYONE talks about that. Far fewer people discuss the factions within Israel that would love nothing more to push the Palestinians into the ocean.
Zero, *I* acknowledged that Israel isn't perfect. *YOU* have yet to address the PLO goal of genocide. Genocide is why it is perfectly acceptable to the PLO to bomb a bus full of civilians.
So I suppose whether Israel supports the existence of a Palestinian state depends on who's in charge -- the left yes, the center and center-right sort of, the right never.
Damgo, since Israel is a democracy, that is certainly true.
The PLO has never advocated genocide, AFAIK. Their original charter denied the right of a Jewish state to exist, a far cry from genocide.
Damgo, having the state not exist is part of the same idea - they did NOT intend to rule a country full of jews.

And yes, Arafat has changed his public stance on that issue, but nevertheless he has refused to condemn terrorism - his actions still actively support it.
I support both a palestinian state and an israeli state. What I do not support is Arafat, hezbollah, hamas, the despicable PLO and other organizations that feast upon its own people, nor do I support purposeful spreading of hate propaganda or misleading diatribes that are essentially anti-semitic hidden behind deep concern for the palestinian people.
Ditto, kat. No hypocrisy on this end.
Anyway, wasn't this thread NOT supposed to be about which side is wrong or right, or what the problem in the Israel/Palestine conflict is, BUT rather whether Israel should get some sort of special treatment?
Could you claify what you mean by "special treatment," dan? I think Israel deserves special treatment from the US in the form of aid as a result of the heavy and constant threat to their existence.
 
  • #36
kyleb
Originally posted by Dissident Dan
kyleb, I don't see how the roman times are relevant. It doesn't matter whose ancestors were where.
i think you mean GENIERE; and no kidding, if the roman augment holds then i want to bring up the fact that my great grandmother was full blooded Cherokee. so if any of you Israili appoligies get in my way, by your own arugments i am totally justified in killing you to defend my rightful homeland.
 
  • #37
Zero
Ok, everyone cut and paste this to your desktop, so i don't have to say it again: I DO NOT SUPPORT PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS NOR DO I SUPPORT THE LEADERS OF ANY GROUP WHO SUPPORT SUICUIDE BOMBINGS OR ISRAELI GENOCIDE.


Now that I've said it in caps, can we move on?
 
  • #38
drag
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Originally posted by Zero
I DO NOT SUPPORT PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS
NOR DO I SUPPORT THE LEADERS OF ANY GROUP WHO
SUPPORT SUICUIDE BOMBINGS OR ISRAELI GENOCIDE.
Are you sure about that ?
And btw, so you have no problem with Arafat do you ? :wink:
 
  • #39
BoulderHead
Is this thread reducing into that 'knee-jerk' thing which Zero spoke of in the first post?
Anyway, wasn't this thread NOT supposed to be about which side is wrong or right, or what the problem in the Israel/Palestine conflict is, BUT rather whether Israel should get some sort of special treatment?
Exactly my thoughts too, Dan.
 
  • #40
kat
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Originally posted by kyleb
please look at this map again and note that the UN partition plan does not call for Israeli occupation of the Gaza strip.

Kyleb, the map has no relevancy to whether occupation is legal or illegal. Nobody here, to my knowledge, has disputed that there is occupied territories, nor does any map change the reason that this house was being bulldozed. Again, the reason this home was bulldozed had nothing to do with building anything.



furthermore, i think it is a bit late to be pointing fingers as the ones who created Israel are mostly dead and gone but the fact is that Jewish people were living in that land of thousands of years without such issues; not until the formation of Israel did those organizations come to be. so how can you say the Palatines resistance is the root? is not the formation of Israel actually that not actually "the root" of this? i am not trying to insult you here by any means kat; as humans we are all blind to some things, and sometimes that can drive haltered. i am just calling it as i see it in the hopes that balance to this issue might be found; but i do not believe that is not going to happen so long as America keeps supporting Israel over Palistine the way we have been.
If you think it's too late to start pointing fingers, then I'm unsure why you would then turn around and point them.
At any rate "those organizations" came for numerous reasons, not all Israel related, much to do with France/Britian partitioning and competing dictatorships, egos, and conflicting beliefs. Also, there was less reason to have terrorist organizations to suppress Jews while they were already living under the auspices of Dhimmi and subject to the whims of the ruling Arab majorities which also culminated into slaughtering large qauntities of jews on numerous occasions.
Also, I think I should point out Hezbollah did not originate only as response to Israel but to Lebanon, it is a extremist group dedicated to creation of Iranian-style Islamic republic in Lebanon and removal of all non-Islamic influences from the area(In Lebanon this would tend to concern a large population of Maronite Christians, although there was a small Jewish population of which most fled). Subsections of the PLO have caused huge conflicts in many countries including Jordan which finally culminated into what was called "Black September".
Lastly, I don't claim "palestinian resistance" to be the root, I claim that organizations and men like Arafat, the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah etc continue to ascerbate the situation PURPOSELY to increase their own personal profit, keep themselves in power, continue their own rascist mandate to commit genocide (not just against the Jews either), all of this at the cost of many INNOCENT palestinian lives...this does not mean that there is no GUILT for men like Sharon, but that as long as there are men within the Palestinian camp that continue to literally FEAST on the situation it will not end, cannot end...because never in a million years will men like this allow it to end. This I firmly believe through my own personaly study of the situation and this I very DEEPLy feel due to personal loss and listening to very, very many stories from those close to me who have experienced horrific events and some who also, early on, partook in such occasions as bribary, illegal importation, threatening for monetary gain all with and from these very same men and organizations in the neighboring country of Lebanon. I won't go into how young men, or rather I should say children and now even young women are initiated into these organizations, but apparently the stories that I hear seem to paralell those that I remember hearing about young teens inducted into religious cults (Moonies?) in the U.S.

Dan- As for "Is Israel Special", I've posted my response to that question previously, it did not seem to interest anyone enough to respond specificly to my post..*shrug*
 
  • #41
Zero
Originally posted by drag
Are you sure about that ?
And btw, so you have no problem with Arafat do you ? :wink:
Whatever....read what I posted.
 
  • #42
damgo
kat -- The the? [?]
Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
I know exactly nothing about international law, but it doesn't seem to say anything about who should do what first. Anyways, that 91% seems misleading -- that's land area, no? Most of that would be the Sinai, which is pretty much totally worthless except as a buffer -- kinda like southern Israel. :smile: Gaza was annexed to Egypt before '67, too, right? And the West Bank to Jordan? BTW, do you know if Israel ever offered to return these territories to Egypt/Jordan with/after the peace, or what those countries and the Palestinians' views on that were?

BTW, here is a good set of maps -- UT's collection is great: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/israel_hist_1973.jpg

GENIERE.... Huh? That area of the Levant -- Judea, Palestine, Eretz Yisrael, whatever you want to call it -- was briefly again under Jewish rule around the beginning of the Roman Empire's expansion. It existed as a client state with varying degrees of independence during the warring between Rome and Parthia, eventually becoming a Roman province. The Romans didn't find them a "religious threat"; they administered Judea the same way they did their other provinces: keeping local institutions around, being tolerant of local culture, only demanding 1) peace and 2) taxes. Many Jews of the time objected to living under the rule of pagan imperialists (sound familiar? :smile:) and increasing tensions culminated in the briefly successful revolt of CE 66, which ended with the orgy of bloodshed common to ancient wars, the destruction of the Temple, and beginning of the Diaspora.

IIRC the Philistines were originally some of the "Sea Peoples" who settled all along the Levant and Egypt long before Roman times. There's no connection AFAIK.

russ -- Yeah; my point was that the Israeli government has not supported the idea of a Palestinian state until rather recently, and quite possibly won't in the near future (especially given how Labour got whacked last election.) Also, they did intend to rule a country full of Jews; at least back then. As has been pointed out, many of the other Arab states have sizable Jewish populations; and then Jews were largely outnumbered by Arab Israelis and Palestinian refugees. Now, I don't know; there is so much hatred and resentment built up... But they are not openly calling for it.

re: whether Israel should get special treatment. Yes; they are the only functioning liberal democracy in the region, a shining example of a successful capitalist economy, and an ideological and military ally. They are on my list of "properly-run countries" along with most of Europe, USA, Canada, Japan, etc.
 
  • #43
drag
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Originally posted by damgo
BTW, do you know if Israel ever offered to
return these territories to Egypt/Jordan
with/after the peace, or what those countries
and the Palestinians' views on that were?
I bet the Egyptians and the Jordanians would
just LOVE to have them... :wink:
 
  • #44
russ_watters
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Originally posted by drag
Are you sure about that ?
And btw, so you have no problem with Arafat do you ? :wink:
He omitted the "but..." part.
Originally posted by damgo
kat -- The the? [?] I know exactly nothing about international law, but it doesn't seem to say anything about who should do what first.
Damgo, the wording of that resolution, like most others, is extremely soft. It does not demand any action. All it says is any peace "should include..." So there is no demand to break.

I'm not saying that you have claimed that, but others have. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Israel is in violation of XX UN resolutions. Bzzzzt. Wrong. You can't violate something that doesn't demand action.
 
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  • #45
kat
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Originally posted by damgo
kat -- The the? [?] I know exactly nothing about international law, but it doesn't seem to say anything about who should do what first.
Damgo-I have to agree with Russ, that's what happens with many UN resolutions, they leave vague wording to satisfy all of those supporting it, and when it comes to analysis or implementation, the vagueness complicates things even further and becomes a further antogonist to an already difficult situation.

Anyways, that 91% seems misleading -- that's land area, no? Most of that would be the Sinai, which is pretty much totally worthless except as a buffer -- kinda like southern Israel. :smile:
actually 91% may be off, I've read updated % at 93% (includes % of Gaza and of West Bank), but in regards to the Sinai, I'm not sure I would call the Oil fields and Jewish settlements that were dismantled totally worthless.(dismantled by Sharon, I believe, isn't that ironic?)

Gaza was annexed to Egypt before '67, too, right? And the West Bank to Jordan? BTW, do you know if Israel ever offered to return these territories to Egypt/Jordan with/after the peace, or what those countries and the Palestinians' views on that were?
I believe that Egypt occupied the Gaza strip from 1949 to 1967 except for the short period in 1956, it did not annex it.
Jordan occupied the West Bank from 1949 to 1967, and unilaterally annexed. The annexation was not recognised (except by Pakistan and the UK), that territory was generally considered as occupied. After the 1967 war, Israel proposed to withdraw to the pre war cease fire lines in exchange for a negotiated peace, I believe the proposal was rejected by the League of Arab States.

BTW, here is a good set of maps -- UT's collection is great: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/israel_hist_1973.jpg
Good maps here as well: http://www.mideastweb.org/maps.htm
 
  • #46
drag
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Greetings !
Originally posted by kat
but in regards to the Sinai, I'm not sure I
would call the Oil fields and Jewish settlements
that were dismantled totally worthless.
Indeed. There were also huge resources put into
building roads there which the Egyptians are still
using today. And between the six day war(1967) and
the yom kipur war(1973) there was also the Suez Canal.

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #47
damgo
kat, russ -- Exactly, that's the point I was trying to make about 242... it was mainly in reponse to whoever brought up international law prohibiting the occupation. :smile: I don't know if it should legally be read as "we officially call on you to do these things now" or "hey, maybe you guys oughtta think about this stuff," but in either case it doesn't support the claims the left usually uses it for.

re: Sinai doesn't have much oil I thought.... google says it accounts for like 5% of oil production. And the settlements were mainly defensive, military, ones, right? IIRC they didn't work too well in the October War. I'm not trying to say that the Sinai was a trivial concession; especially security-wise it was a big deal, but the densely populated areas that are important to the Palestinians (as opposed to the surrrounding Arab states) are Gaza and the West Bank, not southern Lebanon, the Sinai desert, or the Golan Heights. So saying "91%" can IMO be misleading... what would the percentage be as measured by population, do you know? If you're gonna give one figure, give both. :smile:
 
  • #48
kat
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Originally posted by damgo
So saying "91%" can IMO be misleading... what would the percentage be as measured by population, do you know? If you're gonna give one figure, give both. :smile:
GAH! Which population? which years? Are we talking Jews, Arabs, Palestinians measured by what, birth, descendancy, years residence during a certain time period?? present population, past population, including-excluding what?? gah! gah! gah!? :wink:
 
  • #49
kat
26
0
Originally posted by damgo

re: Sinai doesn't have much oil I thought.... google says it accounts for like 5% of oil production. And the settlements were mainly defensive, military, ones, right? IIRC they didn't work too well in the October War. I'm not trying to say that the Sinai was a trivial concession; especially security-wise it was a big deal
Damgo- It was a big deal both in security and economics, Israel put itself at risk and opened itself up to a new round of shipping blockades, military assaults, and terrorist attacks. They also gave up direct control of shipping lanes to and from Eilat, over 1,000 miles of roadways, homes, factories, hotels, hospitals and health facilities, and farming villages.

The Alma oil field in the southern Sinai was discovered AND developed by Israel. When Israel gave up this field it was the country's largest single source of energy, it supplied half the country's energy needs. Israel had projected that continued development there would make the country self-sufficient in energy by 1990. No matter how you may add it all up and compare it, the capability of achieving energy self-sufficiency is not a small concession.

Around 7,000 Israelis were removed from their homes and businesses, which they had spent years building in a desert. The Israeli's of Yamit were forcibly removed by Israeli soldiers lead by Sharon.

On top of the removal of civilians, Israel relocated close to 200 military installations, airfields, and army bases after it's withdrawal.

I won't even get into PROJECTED benefits, I don't think I need to tell you that historically Israel has had amazing success at turning barren desert patches into highly productive areas.
 
  • #50
damgo
GAH! Which population? which years? Are we talking Jews, Arabs, Palestinians measured by what, birth, descendancy, years residence during a certain time period?? present population, past population, including-excluding what??
I dunno, pick any one -- present total population, total population in 1967, whatever -- something else if you think those would miss important factors. Quick googling gives for current pops in millions:

~2.2 West Bank
~1.2 Gaza Strip
~0.2 Golan Heights
~0.3 Sinai Pensinsula

So that's like 8% population-wise that has been given up.

The only reason I brought it up is that 91% land area seemed like an awfully misleading figure to use in this case... so my scientific aversion to abuse of statistics kicked in. I'll take you word on the Sinai stuff. :smile:
I don't think I need to tell you that historically Israel has had amazing success at turning barren desert patches into highly productive areas.
Sure, but there's a huge ecological/geological/etc difference between the coastal/northern areas, and desert wastelend like the Negev and Sinai. My old roommate who spent a while traveling around Israel said that the land south of Beersheeba was the most barren and desolate he'd ever seen (in a little more colorful language.)
 

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