Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

  • #1
Ivan Seeking
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I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, :rolleyes: - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.

I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.
 

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  • #2
Pengwuino
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Although the title is highly decieving, i get what you're saying. Oddly enough my nephew is a marine reservist and lets see..

Mental problems? No.
Alcoholism? No (but then again he drank before even considering the military)
Lack of respect for life? No (and of course that's just your personal opinion)
Brainwashing? Dream on.
Four years of utter boredom? Well he's been pretty bored so far. Oddly enough, he can't wait to go to Iraq but they have been delaying their call-up for i think 18 months or so already.
Flag draped coffins? It's a military, people die, want us to disband it and go back to the stone age?

Whats with all the uninformed ideological rants lately.
 
  • #3
Gokul43201
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Pengwuino said:
Whats with all the uninformed ideological rants lately.
What's with the single-data-point statistics ?
 
  • #4
Ivan Seeking
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As a one-off, I knew a guy who re-upped just so that he could fight in Gulf I. He wanted to use what he had learned. In other words, he wanted to kill people.

Soldiers are trained killers. By defintion this requires a desensitization to killing.
 
  • #5
Pengwuino
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There's a difference between lack of respect and de-sensitizing.
 
  • #6
Pengwuino
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Gokul43201 said:
What's with the single-data-point statistics ?
Did you mean to quote ivan?
 
  • #7
Gokul43201
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Ivan Seeking said:
He wanted to use what he had learned. In other words, he wanted to kill people.
I'm quite sure he doesn't want to kill innocent civilians...rather those people who are killing innocent civilians.
 
  • #8
Gokul43201
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Pengwuino said:
Did you mean to quote ivan?
No, I didn't.

Did you mean to ask someone else ?
 
  • #9
Ivan Seeking
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Gokul43201 said:
I'm quite sure he doesn't want to kill innocent civilians...rather those people who are killing innocent civilians.
He didn't seem to care where he used his skills as long as someone said that it was okay to shoot. A Marine, he expressed great frustration as his commitment was nearing an end. He complained that one learns all of these skills but never really gets to use them. Then Gulf I flared up and he saw his chance, so he signed up for another term.
 
  • #10
Ivan Seeking
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I have spent many hours working at VA hospitals.
 
  • #11
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Gokul43201 said:
What's with the single-data-point statistics ?
Well either Ivan is making a generalization in which case all you need is a single counter example to show that statement is false or he making a statistical statement minus any of the required statistics.....
So why are you jumping on the single data point provided by one person while you let the complete lack of evidence go without a hitch from the other person? Are you showing a bias here or do you have a good reason for that?
 
  • #12
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Ivan Seeking said:
I have spent many hours working at VA hospitals.
And so I value your opinion about VA hostipals. That does not qualify you to make the kind of statements you made.

I have spent many hours serving on active duty and not a single statement you made would seem to agree with my observations in any way. If your going to make sensational claims that go completely against observations then you should have some pretty convincing evidence to support it.

So far the only evidence is that you have offered is a personal account from working in a VA hospital....that doesn't cut it.

[edit]perhaps the patriotism part is true but mostly just by Marines and die hards....in the Navy FTN is the most common mantra held by the 4 year guys and I would even say they are less patriotic when they leave then when they came in.[/edit]
 
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  • #13
Gokul43201
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Townsend said:
Well either Ivan is making a generalization in which case all you need is a single counter example to show that statement is false or he making a statistical statement minus any of the required statistics.....
So why are you jumping on the single data point provided by one person while you let the complete lack of evidence go without a hitch from the other person? Are you showing a bias here or do you have a good reason for that?
Ivan is making a statistical statement based on his experiences. And with no knowledge whatsoever of Ivan's experiences, Pengwuino labeled him as "uninformed". He also backed up this barb with a single piece of anecdotal evidence.

I may be showing a bias here, but I think I had good reason to post what I did (as explained above).
 
  • #14
Pengwuino
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So it's ok to say our soldiers are brainwashed but woo, the hell if i get to say someone is uninformed because they made a broad inaccurate generalization?
 
  • #15
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Gokul43201 said:
I may be showing a bias here, but I think I had good reason to post what I did (as explained above).
You did have a good reason and what you posted is fine by me. What I don't get is why you don't challenge Ivan's points when they are clearly very weak?
 
  • #16
selfAdjoint
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Ivan has based his statements not only on his experiences but upon his opinions. He dislikes the fact the the Marine re-upped in order to use his Marine skills in combat. "In other words he wanted to kill people". This oversimplifies the desire of the Marine to fight, down to a desire to murder. If you believe they are the same thing, that is justifiable. But many of us do not believe that.
 
  • #17
Gokul43201
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I responded to pengwuino's personal attack on Ivan. I also responded to Ivan's claim that the person he knew wanted to kill people, no matter who they were.

I didn't endorse Ivan's statement anywhere (as Pengwuino has just insinuated I did). I'm done with this bickering.
 
  • #18
Pengwuino
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Oh come on, if we're not going to bicker, what is this sub-forum good for then :D
 
  • #19
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Gokul43201 said:
I responded to pengwuino's personal attack on Ivan. I also responded to Ivan's claim that the person he knew wanted to kill people, no matter who they were.

I didn't endorse Ivan's statement anywhere (as Pengwuino has just insinuated I did). I'm done with this bickering.
Sorry to upset you....:redface:

I guess I take personal offense to post like Ivan's because I did spend 8.5 years serving in the Navy. I have many good and bad memories about it and I think I have a good idea of the pro's can con's of service in the Navy. I also worked with many Marines and so while I am not an expert on Marines I do value the opinions of my good friends who are Gunnys and Staff Sgts...

What Ivan's post is doing is denigrating a respectable job that people do for various reasons, the least of which is to kill people. If I felt he had an informed opinion then I would not mind him posting whatever but I cannot reconcile how unrealistic some of his statements are. They might have been true 25 years ago and even then only to some degree.....However I entered into service in 1996 and left service August of 2004. In that time the military changed a lot and those statements are no longer accurate at all. The last two years of my enlistment, I earned over 30 college credits while serving full time active duty. Those credits helped me to advance in rank. I also spent an average of 10-15 hours a month doing community service. In fact my entire command CNATTU Lemoore was actively involved in off duty education and community service.

What is so wrong with having military bearing, education and community service that we should try to keep kids from joining the military?
 
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  • #20
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Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?
An occupation that requires an individual to place their physical body in immediate danger of physical harm, so as to inflict physical harm with "skills" that have been learned upon an other individual, thus inhibits the individual's ability to perform any physical "skill" learned, and renders the "occupation" redundant.

Therefore, any individual that promotes the said "occupation" is NOT "right".

A TRUE "occupation" encompasses "skills" that are applicable without inhibitions.

o:)
 
  • #21
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Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?
Yes. Always, but particularly so now. Now, the military does not equal defense of American values so much as defense of misguided patriotism at all costs.

WWTDLD? (What would the dalai lama do?)
 
  • #22
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pattylou said:
Yes. Always, but particularly so now. Now, the military does not equal defense of American values so much as defense of misguided patriotism at all costs.
That is simply not true :grumpy:

If you all want to go around hating the Bush Administration and the republicans go right ahead, I won't try to stop you. But this crap is completely wrong and I would like to see some actual proof that these claims are true in general.

I am seriously disappointed in you people. This suppose to be an academic forum where I would at least expect people have informed opinions. :mad:
 
  • #23
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My american values are things like:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
How does our invasion of Iraq in any way promote the ideals of tolerance, equality, welcome, and multi-culturism imbued in this inscription?
 
  • #24
Pengwuino
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pattylou said:
How does our invasion of Iraq in any way promote the ideals of tolerance, equality, welcome, and multi-culturism imbued in this inscription?
How did Iraq's culture before that embody those ideals?
 
  • #25
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pattylou said:
My american values are things like:
How does our invasion of Iraq in any way promote the ideals of tolerance and multi-culturism imbued in this inscription?
The decision to invade Iraq was NOT made by the military! So you have NO point.

The values you listed are very much in line with the military values. Just take a look at military demographics and you will see that. The military takes people from all over the world and gives them a chance to make significant personal growth without having to worry about where they will get their next meal or thing like racism.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about so why don't you give up while you're behind.
 

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