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Is Kate Moss right ?

  1. Nov 22, 2009 #1
    Kate Moss said the lines quoted below in a interview. Later she came under heavy fire from various sources for this declaration.

    Leaving aside the fact that a US size 0 might be a slight exaggeration, what do you feel ? Was she right or wrong ?

    I tend to say yes, she was. Maintaining a physique with as low body fat percentage is possible and still healthy is something I consider an excellent advantage. It does make you feel like a million dollars. :P

    Sure, a low bf% doesn't necessarily mean a very low size. For my perception , FloJo's body is perfect. Much higher cloth size, yet very low bf%


    Your take ?

    Moss quote
    WWD: Do you have a motto?
    KM: There are loads. There’s “Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.” That’s one of them. You try and remember, but it never works.

    Read more: CocoPerez: Kate Moss Takes Heat For Pushing Skinny http://cocoperez.com/2009-11-20-kate-moss-takes-heat-for-pushing-skinny#ixzz0Xb09xcjb
    Where celebrity meets fashion!
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
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  3. Nov 22, 2009 #2


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    Right or wrong about what? She gave a motto and says it does not work to stay thin. Apparently she is saying that things taste better than skinny feels.

    People have different body types, some are naturally skinny and others naturally chubby. Fighting against that will only make you unhappy. People should live a healthy life style and accept the body that comes along with that.
  4. Nov 22, 2009 #3
    Obviously, it works staying thin. Just look at her size over the last decade. This is a fact. For me the motto apparently means that it's well worth to look good (skinny for models), but it;s a permanent struggle.

    So the question is: is it worth the sacrifices to look as a supermodel ?

    Why should anyone accept anything ? Yes, ppl do come with different body style. The do come with different genetics. Yet one of the wonders of this world is that you wish something hard enough you get it. Why do you think that actually accomplishing something makes you unhappy ? I seen a lot of chubby, but otherwise healthy women, functioning normally. I bet most of them would kill for the sex -appeal which comes with a strong , well proportioned body and low bf%.
  5. Nov 22, 2009 #4


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    It is not about accomplishing something, it is about maintaining something. If that needs to be a permanent struggle (as you say it yourself), how can that be healthy? How much does FloJo have to give up to have a trained body as she have. It is not something she has, it is something she works hard for every day.

    You mention chubby healthy women that would kill for the sex-appeal for a well-proportioned body. There are also skinny healthy women that would want the same.

    I think these kinds of arguments lead to nowhere, having a healthy body and mind is not about what the scales say or what the bf% is.
  6. Nov 22, 2009 #5
    If you care about your physical attractiveness, then it is fine to focus on it since it is something you value (I am disregarding the question of whether this is an admirable value or not).

    BUT, I think anyone who believes a super model holds the secret to life needs a serious reboot of their life. Kate Moss is a serious intellectual twit in my opinion and the moment I start even considering her notions on life as even a possible viable outlook I hope my children and wife take me out back and put me out of my misery...
  7. Nov 22, 2009 #6
    I do agree with you, but empirically , I think them chubby girls more likely to have issue with self esteem than skinny ones.

    Sure, FloJo had to give up a lot for the *performance* she displayed (she still holds women WR for 100m as of today). You can get the body with *much* less effort.

    But this (sacrifices) is generally true for any avenue of life. How much you had to give up to climb up to the level you seek a post doc position in developmental biology ? I will assume that it didn't come over night, and you had to struggle for it.
    Why did you do it ? Why did FloJo did it ?

    Being healthy has nothing to do with scales indeed, nor with fine tuning of %bf. But "being healthy" does not necessarily make you happy. This whole argument you present also leads nowhere. You basically say what Moonbear said in an older thread, "What is to improve upon when function is normal" ? Well, humans climbed Everest for the sole reason "It is there".

    Being healthy in mind and body will not take you ahead of the pack. Performance, on the other side, will.
  8. Nov 22, 2009 #7
    Well, I talk here only about the looks / physical side and what they can offer to a person.

    But anyway, your post is awesome.
  9. Nov 22, 2009 #8


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    I'd like to see a study that would support that point. I think skinny girls can have just as much self esteem issues as chubby girls. I know I was always picked on the fact that I was skinny, even on this board people make derogatory comments towards skinny people.

    That's true. So for some people it will be something that they want to make a sacrifice for. Think for instance about the people who go on caloric restriction diets to live longer. Everybody needs to make up their own mind on their goals, I don't expect everyone to go through a PhD and I also don't think you need one in order to be successful in life :wink:
  10. Nov 22, 2009 #9


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    A young friend of mine taught me how to kayak in white-water. She was 14 or 15 at the time and was training like crazy in the expectation that kayaking would become an Olympic sport. While training, she suffered a rotator-cuff injury, and started hitting the gym regularly to rehabilitate. She discovered that she loved weight-training, and she moved in with the owner of the gym and his wife so that she could train every day and still attend school, albeit a school 70 miles from her family and old friends. in about a year, she went from petite and solid to massive. Lots more muscle and extra fat, too. Soon she was the junior women's powerlifting champion, first in the US and then in the world, and stepped into the women's class at the top of her field. Thankfully, she didn't have self-image issues based on her appearance. She just wanted to the the best at something she loved to do, and she achieved that.
  11. Nov 22, 2009 #10


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    Can someone explain to me why I should care about what some actress thinks? Should't we look for life models from someone who has accomplished something other then pretending to be someone else?
  12. Nov 22, 2009 #11
    I wonder what the OPs definition of skinny is anyways or chubby. I think these terms are relative to where you live. For instance a lot more people are overweight in America than in Japan. So if the average American travelled to Japan they would probably consider everyone there 'skinny'.

    BF% Doesn't really have anything to do with you being skinny a person can weigh 300lbs and have virtually no body fat. As well I do not think that more people wanting to be skinny is a bad thing or undesirable thing that goes against their nature. I do not think that nature created Americans to be genetically fat, this comes from their eating habits. I think that all people are born with the genetics to maintain a average BMI and BF%.
  13. Nov 22, 2009 #12


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    BINGO!!! Someone can be very skinny (perhaps slender physique would be a better description?) and still have a reasonable body fat %...usually at the expense of muscle.

    You DO need a certain body fat % to be healthy. For women, usually around 13-15%, and a little lower for men. I'm not at all sure why the discussion is somehow only comparing skinny to chubby (obese?). Yes, once you get over a certain body fat %, you also have increased risk of health problems. But there is a range in between of healthy body fat percentages.

    There are also issues with body fat distribution, not just percentage. A woman might have a fairly high body fat percentage, but if it's all distributed to her hips, buttocks and breasts, she may be healthier than someone who has a lower body fat percentage with it primarily distributed to her abdomen.
  14. Nov 22, 2009 #13
    I don't know why you should care, sincerely. But in general there are people who care from a very simple reason:

    Celebrities do get an enormous amount of exposure in the media. Regardless you like it or not, the reality is that this empowers them with the ability to form currents of opinion in the public at large. Sending the wrong message can have impacts on the life of many ppl.
    For example, in the case of a model, it may impact the lives of a lot of teenage girls. It may send them spiraling down on a path of a unhealthy diets, eating disorders and so on.

    This is accentuated by the fact that most magazines will put out only "PR approved" images of celebrities, where the women in question looks at their best, and besides those pictures are often re-touched digitally. It doesn't take much for the average teenage to think "I want to be her".

    Actually, raising to the status of supermodel in real world means a lot. Do not forget that
    this is the top of their branch. It is not something you achieve by "pretending you are someone else". Like in any job, to get to the top it's an impressive achievement, which requires a lot of dedication and effort, talent and luck. You may or may not like the "job" or you may even consider the job the utmost idiocy, but trying to minimize the efforts required and treating lightly the accomplishments of ppl who managed to get to the top of their profession is not doing anyone any good. It's an extremely though line of job. Its not easy to become even a locally known model, dont even mention international super star status, payed with million of dollars.

    As for life models, it;s personal. Dont expect a girl which wants to be an actress or a model
    to take as life model Marie Curie. It wouldn't help her accomplish anything.
  15. Nov 22, 2009 #14


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    Kate Moss isn't an actress. Regardless, young girls look up to models and actresses and treat them as role models, whether you like it or not. Personally, I don't think it matters whether what Moss said was 'correct' or not (whatever the phrase even really means). The point is that she used a motto that, to impressionable young girls, comes across as condoning not eating as a method of looking good. Someone in her position should not do that.
  16. Nov 22, 2009 #15
    I've never seen someone who is naturally chubby or skinny. Just look at their diets and lifestyles and you'll see why they are how they are. They may say they can't lose or gain weight, but that's just not true.
    Unless of course they're naturally chubby because they naturally can't convince themselves not to eat that cake. But that's probably because they're used to eating that way and it's hard to stop. You can't just eat cake all your life and quit cold turkey, then when you realize you can't, act like it's your genetics that makes you want the cake.
    And every skinny person I see who says they can't gain weight, after I see what they eat every day, I know why. If you don't eat more than a handful of food a day, you won't gain weight.
  17. Nov 22, 2009 #16


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    Isn't the problem 'receiving the wrong message'.

    It's the fact the 'people', or members of the audience, give importance to opinions of celebrities, that encourages the media to promote celebrity and frivolous or superficial opinions.

    Kate Moss's physique should only be a concern for her and her significant others. If one does not know her personally (in person), then one can simply ignore her. Kate Moss is right for Kate Moss. Her opinions do not necessarily apply to anyone else.

    Isn't one responsible for one's critical thinking?
  18. Nov 22, 2009 #17
    Sure, but this is not usually the case for models and actresses. In addition to their nutritional regimes they usually have an physical training program which offer a certain level
    of protection against extreme proteolysis in skeletal muscles, and also promote fat mobilization and oxidation.

    From the health point of view, you are right. It is a well established fact that androgenic patterns of fat deposits location are linked with increase risk of CVD compared to female patterns.

    But when you go beyond health , and you need to look "good", both patterns can be equally ruining to your image.
  19. Nov 22, 2009 #18
    I thought this is about the girl who said nude pictures empower women .. :disappointed:
  20. Nov 22, 2009 #19


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    How could you possibly know whether they are "unnaturally" skinny or chubby? Unless they're a close sibling you've grown up and monitored their eating and exrecising habits I suppose.

    Body type definitely has a genetic component. It might be possible for an naturally thin person to force-feed themselves, and it might be possible for an naturally large person to starve themselves. But we're talking about maintaining a healthy lifestyle here.
  21. Nov 22, 2009 #20


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    Kate Moss is a professional model which means that her body is quite literally a "tool".
    It is not like she can just stop caring about what she looks like, if she did she wouldn't get any more work, something that she is fully aware of. In many ways there is no difference between her and e.g a professional athlete in that she'll do whatever she has to in order to be good at her job.

    Look at Michael Johnson, he used to be EXTREMELY fit but the they he stopped competing he also stopped training (although he is obviously still in pretty good shape). When asked why in a recent interview he basically said that he didn't see the point anymore, he never enjoyed training but he had to do it in order to win.

    The point is that using supermodels as "role models" or asking them for advice about how to stay in shape is pretty pointless, they are in a completely different situation to the rest of us.
  22. Nov 22, 2009 #21
    What you describe is an idealized situation. Yes, critical thinking should always be employed.

    But in practice, things are not standing this way. It doesn't matter as much as "what should be done" as what the status quo is. And the status quo is that for millions of wanna be models and actresses around the world, her words carry weight.

    If we all used "critical thinking" World War shouldn't have existed. But sadly, it has, and tenths of million have died.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  23. Nov 22, 2009 #22
    The average BMI for a person is a pretty large range. I think humans naturally fall into this range. As you point out it is all about health and having a higher BF% or a lower BF% is not maintaining your natural health. Blaming it on genetics is just a cop out in my opinion. Even by looking at paintings or sculptures these women were still for sure within the healthy range... so why suddenly is this different and we have more people going to the extremes... it's not genetics. (genetics only guides your body in storing the fat; it doesn't grow it.)
  24. Nov 22, 2009 #23
    I don't think there's such thing as naturally or unnaturally skinny or chubby.
    The only reason the naturally large person would be considered starving themselves is because it takes more food to distend their stomach to tell their brain they're full. That's why bariatric surgery works. It decreases the size of the stomach so it distends faster and makes the person eat less.
    Why does the large person need more nutrients and calories than the skinny person to be healthy? To maintain fat?
  25. Nov 22, 2009 #24
    Leroy there is a gene that controls both suceptibilty to weight gain. I had to call the missus to find ut what it was.


    There are several other genes that deal with weight also. So yes you can be predisposed to be fat. Just like you can be pre disposed to be an alcoholic, or pre disposed to diabetes, a short ***. etc etc

    Also in mice there is a hormone (leptin) that tells the mouse it's full. If deactivated you get an obese mouse.! ob/ob mouse


    This isn't the same hormone that's in humans though, althoug there is an equaivialnt thats being tested aparently. I dunno she started nameing these complicated things and I switched off tbh.

    Taking it further it may go towards explaining why obesity is increasing. Of course the fact that people now tend to sit on their asses probably has more to do with
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  26. Nov 22, 2009 #25
    This is not why bariartic surgery works.

    Regulation of appetite in human involves a pretty complex interplay of hormones and neurotransmitters, which I dont feel like detailing now. It is not "my stomach distended" and now I feel full. There can exist serious defects in regulation of appetite in humans, either inborn or acquired during life.

    The main effect comes from the physical impossibility to eat enormous portions of food due to a reduced stomach size. The ability to ingest food is drastically curved after this type of surgery. It is not that you feel "full"

    Another effect comes from the fact that the surgery has indirect effects on the hormonal ensemble of the organism.
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