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Is there a hidden layer in the universe ?

  1. Oct 9, 2004 #1
    The concept is not as abstract as it may seem. Science is developed in a loop of continuous interactions from Reality to the Sense organs(hand, eye) to the Mind and back again from Mind to Sense organ(hand) to Reality as
    this diagram Reality (R), Senses(S) and Mind(M) shows:

    R -> S -> M
    R <- S <- M

    Up until now M has always been fixed, but changing M everything changes. In this sense there would be a new and different science. We can imagine also wildly changing S by the way.

    An interesting thing is that we can imagine there being an intermediate "invisible" layer called a "Presentation" layer that presents the information from the previous layer in a completely different form and format:

    R -> S -> P -> M
    R <- S <- P -> M

    For example reality R could actually be a solid box of some unknow matter and we just poke at it with some sticks, but the presentation layer hides this and we could never discover this.
    We wouldn't notice because it is transparent but it could be there.

    Even more interesting is if this layer is at some other point of the diagram:

    R -> P -> S -> M
    R <- P <- S -> M

    In this case you could have for example that reality is a giant simulation in a computer of an unkown alien having completely different physics and the P layer hides this fact from us (we would be in a simulation aka Matrix..) or it could always be a box of some unknow matter and we just poke at it.
    The presentation layer hides this and we could never discover this.

    In the next diagram we could interpret it as saying everything is only in our mind (or we live in a dream) and there is no external reality at all there
    being a layer P that fools us:

    P -> S -> M
    P <- S -> M

    The point is that I can't imagine anyway of discovering this hidden layer!

    We have some concrete cases where there are almost invisible layers (but that can be discovered):

    1) when we digest food it is almost invisible

    2) Some of us can live comfortably in part because there is a layer of workers somewhere in the world who work almost for free (or in the past worked); we don't notice but we use their goods

    We are "buffered" from Reality, so extrapolating this to the universe the question becomes interesting...

    Any comments ?

  2. jcsd
  3. Oct 9, 2004 #2
    Yeah, the latest estimates are that all of ordinary matter and energy represent about 4% of the total. The rest is all dark matter and energy. The flea on the back of an elephant.

    I think you could probably make a similar analogy to consciousness and ego.
  4. Oct 11, 2004 #3
    In that case, then where does the 'Presentation' layer come from? Something must decide to fool the mind into believing there is no external reality. The mind itself fools itself?

    But if one mind imagines this layer P, then how can multiple minds affect this layer P?
  5. Oct 11, 2004 #4
    Good question. And even spookier is the mind that imagines being physically conceived by the coming together of the physical male and female creatures; that imagines to see physical table in front of it; that imagines to touch it, feel the shape, the hardness and so on; that picks up a cup, walks to a bowl of water in the centre of a physical bedroom, pours some into the cup and drinks it, pouring down the throat and into the stomarch......all construed as manifestations of what is entirely a mind? Very spooky....yes, very spooky!
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2004
  6. Oct 11, 2004 #5
    The Hidden World Is A World Of Minds?

    Ok, if the hidden world is a world consisting of minds only, the next fundamental questions that require immediate answers are these:

    1) VISION

    Do minds notice, let alone see, each other at all? If, so how?


    Since in such a world there are no material bodies, how do minds communicate with each other? Does the Mind-World share the same physics as the Material World?


    How do minds give rise to one another by the notion of reproduction?


    If a mind is divisible, we should be able to claim that it has parts? If so, how are parts of a mind configured and functioned? That is, how do they all fit and work together?


    Do minds fight wars, commit suicide, play games, fall ill, tell lies or truths, hate or love etc...etc?

    6) DEATH

    Can a mind die? Can a mind be killed by another mind? When a mind dies, if it can die in the first place, where do they go?

    and so on.....the list just goes on? Sorry about asking these sorts of startling questions, I am only trying to imagine how a purely 'MIND-WORLD' would function.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2004
  7. Oct 11, 2004 #6
    For Reality must, and for always, proceed from QUANTITATIVELY and LOGICALLY consistent relations!
  8. Oct 12, 2004 #7
    I meant "everything is within your own mind", in the example I gave I was thinking there was only one mind your own, like when you dream. So in reality in this example there would really be no other minds except yours, therefore you would be the only mind in exitence. You will never prove this to be wrong, but then in all kinds of cases, like the giant simulator, if a hidden layer exists, you can't percieve it.

  9. Oct 12, 2004 #8
    I am not a great fan of solipsism. If solipsism is possible, then I am another mind, merely imagining to sit in front of an illusive computer deluding myself to be physically responding to your posting. Well, I leave that to the judgements of individual world members, if any!
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