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lockecole
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Just wondering...
Why do you think that life after death and honesty have any relationship to each other?lockecole said:Just wondering...
Prometheus said:Why do you think that life after death and honesty have any relationship to each other?
lockecole said:Is there a reason to be honest if you don't believe in life after death?
There may be a reason depending on what you want. People have instincts and that includes the instinct to protect their children and themselves. A world in which people have no qualms about being honest is a worse place to live than a world in which people don't like to be honest. I'm not even sure if civilization can work like that.lockecole said:Just wondering...
Almost everyone else in the world thinks that. Why don't you? Life after death is assumed by most people to be associated with God. It is also assumed by most that if God exists then honesty is part of what God wants. It is also assumed by most that doing what God wants gets you what you want and doing what God doesn't want results in severe consequences which are most unpleasant.Prometheus said:Why do you think that life after death and honesty have any relationship to each other?
Please explain how you know for a fact that almost everyone in the entire world thinks this way.pmb_phy said:Almost everyone else in the world thinks that.
Does this statement not rule out a large percentage of people in the world? Are you contending that almost everyone in the entire world believes in god, and that the god that they believe in causes them to believe as you stated here?Life after death is assumed by most people to be associated with God.
You repeatedly state that "is is assumed by most". How do you claim to know what most assume?It is also assumed by most that if God exists then honesty is part of what God wants. It is also assumed by most that doing what God wants gets you what you want and doing what God doesn't want results in severe consequences which are most unpleasant.
jammieg said:How is honesty different from deception? I mean they are both ways of getting what one wants, but what does one really want? Both of these actions must have certain affects on one's perception of reality and reality, it would be nice if everyone could be told exactly that being honest would make everything better but then they would be a liar.
All you have to do is to think about the destiny of your childern.lockecole said:Is there a reason to be honest if you don't believe in life after death?
Show me where I said that I know it for a fact and I will retract that statement. Can I prove it mathematically? No. Can I show a print out from measured brainwaves which show this to be true? No. Why did I say that? Simple - Statistically - most people are religious and the worlds dominant religions hold to the old testiment and from that it follows that honesty is rewarded after death. Do you find that logic to be in error? If so then why?Prometheus said:Please explain how you know for a fact that almost everyone in the entire world thinks this way.
If you show me where I said "rules out a large percentage etc" then I will retract it. I said most and that was what my comments were based on, i.e. what most people in the world think. Over than 50% is most since "most" is defined as "greatest in quantity" or "majority". You may have thought of a different definition than that but I did not. I was actually thinking about 80% but I feel safe with my statement but with the above stats (which I did an internet search on) the statement I made is still accurate.Does this statement not rule out a large percentage of people in the world?
Nowhere in any post in this forum did I said that almost everyone believes in God. "Almost everyone" to me would be something like 95%. Again, I said mostAre you contending that almost everyone in the entire world believes in god, and that the god that they believe in causes them to believe as you stated here?
Statistics. I went to a Catholic college and religious studies was required and that was something I always remembered, i.e. that more people believe in God than people who don't. Can I prove the stats are correct? No. I went by memory mind you of what those stats were. I do recall previously thinking before I went to college that the opposite was true. When I found out different it left an impression on me. And I assume those who call themselves "Christian" practice Christianity etc. However I did a search and it seems I was off a bit. I was thinking 80% but its really about 62%. Ah well.You repeatedly state that "is is assumed by most". How do you claim to know what most assume?
Yes.Even if I accept your statement as valid, and I do consider that for those who believe in god that it is sufficiently valid to accept in this context here, do you consider that your statement addresses the initial question of this thread?
pmb_phy said:Show me where I said that I know it for a fact and I will retract that statement.
Your implication, I contend, is that almost everyone else in the world believes this way, and that I am a rare exception. Are you suggesting that I am wrong? You did not say "you believe" or "in your opinion", but made your statement in an objective manner.pmb_phy said:Almost everyone else in the world thinks that. Why don't you?
I do not consider that your usage of most is valid, and that is the source of my objection. To me, "most" does not mean 50% +1 (or more). This is particularly true when your usage of "most" follows "almost everyone in the world".Why did I say that? Simple - Statistically - most people are religious and the worlds dominant religions hold to the old testiment and from that it follows that honesty is rewarded after death. Do you find that logic to be in error? If so then why?
I contest your numbers. Even though you state that there are 2 billion Christians, for example, I do not think that you can contend that all but at most an insignificant minority holds the belief that you say. There is a significant minority that considers itself a member of one of these religions, but is not religious. Even so, you are far from a position to say most, I contend. Paricularly when you challenge me as being a rare exception.Some approximate stats - 1.1 billion Muslims, 2 billion Christians, 14 million Jewish, 850 million Hindus.
The first three religions in that list adhere to the old testiment. Adding Hindus, most of which believe in God (but not all) and that makes up greater that 50% of the worlds population. The world population on in 2003 was 6.3 billion. Buddhism isn't really a religion as much as it is philosophy. As I recall, they don't believe in God.
You use the word honesty, but how honest is it to suggest that 50% plus a few deserves the use of the word "most"? This is particularly true when your usage of "most" follows "almost everyone", which I believe serves as an indicator of your meaning of the scope of "most".That means that most of the people in the world are religious. All the more well known religious that I'm aware of believe in honesty in this life will be rewarded in the next.
Yes. I claim that your use of the word "most" is inappropriate, particluarly in light of your use of "almost everyone".Do you claim otherwise?
I said it, based on your usage of the word most. You claim that most is defined as majority, such that 50% + 1 qualifies as most. I consider this dishonest. I do not believe that you should say most, when you are estimating somewhere in the neighborhood of 50%. This is particularly true when your usage of "most" follows "almost everyone in the world".If you show me where I said "rules out a large percentage etc" then I will retract it. I said most and that was what my comments were based on, i.e. what most people in the world think. Over than 50% is most since "most" is defined as "greatest in quantity" or "majority".
I hope that you did not learn at this school to talk about most people in the world when you mean at least 50%.Statistics. I went to a Catholic college and religious studies was required and that was something I always remembered, i.e. that more people believe in God than people who don't.
pmb_phy said:Almost everyone else in the world thinks that. Why don't you?
Nope. I never said that. Open a dictionary and look up the word "most".Prometheus said:Your implication, I contend, is that almost everyone else in the world believes this way, ...
I'm suggesting that you read exactly what I said when someone asked me about what "most" means. Your comments after that seem to indicate that you ignore my explanation as to what I meant by "most"...and that I am a rare exception. Are you suggesting that I am wrong?
Something like a statistic is objective. It is not subjective. E.g. the number of people in the world in 2003 was 6.3 billion. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. Same with religions and simple assumptions about them. At the time I posted it I was going by my recollections from my religion courses and what I recalled. I recall that the greater majority of the people in the world believe in God. I used the term "most" instead.You did not say "you believe" or "in your opinion", but made your statement in an objective manner.
As much as I personally dislike your use of the word "most" as meaning at least 50% +1, I believe that it is particularly misleading when following this citation. Did you or did you not say this? Does this quote by you mean at least 50% +1?pmb_phy said:Almost everyone else in the world thinks that.
Do you in normal speech say most or the greater majority for a situation regarding 50% + 1? If so, fine. Go ahead. I personally find it misleading, as I said.pmb_phy said:I recall that the greater majority of the people in the world believe in God. I used the term "most" instead.
Yes, I grant that technically the dictionary does give that as a valid meaning. I am quite surprised to hear it used that way. I wonder how many people on this forum, for example, use most for any number greater than 50%.As far as what "most" means, look in a dictionary next time. You'll see it defined in several ways, one of which is most: the majority of where majority is defined as majority: a number greater than half of a total. That is from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
I agree. In your very first repsonse to me, you said:In any case this thread is not about what "most" means. Its about whether there a reason to be honest if you don't believe in life after death.
Let us forget our disagreement over your use of most for a moment. You began by saying that almost everybody else, but me, in the world thinks this way. By this phrase, do you mean most? In other words, by "almost everybody in the world" do you mean "at least 50%"?pmb_phy said:Almost everyone else in the world thinks that. Why don't you?
pmb_phy said:Almost everyone else in the world thinks that. Why don't you? Life after death is assumed by most people to be associated with God. It is also assumed by most that if God exists then honesty is part of what God wants. It is also assumed by most that doing what God wants gets you what you want and doing what God doesn't want results in severe consequences which are most unpleasant.
Only if taken out of context. If you noticed I said doing what God wants. God knows were're not perfect and knows we will sin. He wants us to repent and then chose not do sin .. ideally anyway. If you at first chose not to do what God wanted and then later repented then you ended up doing what God wanted, didn't you?Locrian said:This is incorrect.
pmb_phy said:If you at first chose not to do what God wanted and then later repented then you ended up doing what God wanted, didn't you?
May I assume that this point is now clarified?
I was speaking only about dishonesty and in this context - with no repentance.
So now you are the spokesman for god as recognized by all religions.pmb_phy said:God knows were're not perfect and knows we will sin.
Good one.May I assume that this point is now clarified?
I don't see anything about 50% +1.Note: I looked in the Shorter Oxford English on the definition of "most"
Dictionary: 1a Greatest in size, largest; greatest in number, quantity, or
amount.
I don't follow. Do you mean that all people who are dishonest will absolutely go to heaven? BTW - I'm speaking in broad general terms since I don't know what God is thinking when it comes to each person. After all this is all guesses and conjecture since nobody knows what happens after you die. Frankly the notion has scared the heck out of me in the last few years having been so close to it.Locrian said:The implication in the original post is that a belief in an afterlife has some bearing on honesty. Since you can be dishonest and go to heaven, I do not see any basis for that assumption, at least in the Christian religion. If he did not intend to include many large religions, he should have been more specific about which life after death he meant.
Of course not. However its impossible to have any real conversation about God without a few basic assumptions and I'm going by my personal beliefs which seems reasonable since several of the worlds religions follow it. Anytime anyone makes a statement about God they are making a statement which is impossible to prove. But when we discuss God we make assumptions/postulates/axioms or whatever you want to call them.So now you are the spokesman for god as recognized by all religions.
So what's your point? It appears from this statement of yours that you are forgetting my very first comment in this thread, or that you didn't read it. I posted the following commentI think that most people are honest most of the time, even if they do not believe in an afterlife. Of course, by your logic this statement says little, merely that at least 50% of people are honest at least 50% of the time.
As such your claim that "at least 50% of people are honest at least 50% of the time." is incorrect. One reason for honesty may be related to a instinct and the desire to live which is best accomplished by living in a civilized world. Another reason is related to God and another is related to philosophy, e.g. Christianity which is God based and philosophy which are not but for which have an ethic such as Buddhism.There may be a reason depending on what you want. People have instincts and that includes the instinct to protect their children and themselves. A world in which people have no qualms about being honest is a worse place to live than a world in which people don't like to be honest. I'm not even sure if civilization can work like that.
Phrases cannot be "looked up" and what it means to an individual is obviously subjective. As I said, I once believed what you do about what the term "most" means and it was pointed out to me that I was incorrect. I therefore have adjusted my use of the term to more accurately reflect the precise definition of the term. You can use it as you like, but I will use it as defined.Now, would you please look up "almost everyone in the world".
pmb_phy said:I don't follow. Do you mean that all people who are dishonest will absolutely go to heaven?
Frankly the notion has scared the heck out of me in the last few years having been so close to it.
Its not the fear of Hell that scares me. Its the possibility that there is no afterlife and my consciousness simply winks out of existence that scares me.Locrian said:If you are Christian, read the new testament more carefully. Although some of Paul's teachings can sound pretty strict, Jesus himself sets rather easy standards for getting there. No Christian should have any fear of hell, it's just too easy to avoid. If you are not Christian, well then I suppose things could be different. However, in that case it is obvious the initial post was overly broad.
My statement was meaningless, like yours, and was meant to be taken as meaningless.pmb_phy said:As such your claim that "at least 50% of people are honest at least 50% of the time." is incorrect.
Sure. I hope that you are smiling when you say that. You say "almost everyone in the world", a meaningless statement which you could not possibly verify and you could not possibly have evidence to support, and you pretend to honestly expect that I should recognize that "almost everyone in the world" means "at least 50%". Sure.Phrases cannot be "looked up" and what it means to an individual is obviously subjective.
I am sorry. I must have missed where you said that you once believed as I did. Can you post that quote?As I said, I once believed what you do about what the term "most" means and it was pointed out to me that I was incorrect.
Funny, aren't you. Is this the "precise" definition that you are using? Are you being "precise" when you say "most" when you mean at least 50%? I think that you should reanalyze your situation. Otherwise, you will find as life goes on that everyone misunderstands you, because you are the only person in the world who knows the "precise" definition of the words that you use. Don't you think?I therefore have adjusted my use of the term to more accurately reflect the precise definition of the term. You can use it as you like, but I will use it as defined.
I do not, and I do not.So tell me - Do you believe in honesty and afterlife being related in anyway or not? Do you believe in honesty and God being related in anyway or not. If so in either case then why?
Deep. Life must be much easier for "most" non religious types, as they don't have this fear to contend with.pmb_phy said:Its not the fear of Hell that scares me. Its the possibility that there is no afterlife and my consciousness simply winks out of existence that scares me.
Are you suggesting that it is fear of punishment that causes "most" people to be honest?I think we've gotten off the main track here - If one does not believe in an afterlife what is his motivation to be honest?
I admire your use of the impersonal pronoun "one". Now, you might consider pronoun agreement, as "they" is not in accord with "one" or "a person". Also, you might consider the subjunctive.Can one really flourish in a civilization if they are considered to be a dishonest person?
Good for you.I think its pretty obvious that atheists are not considered to be dishonest as a group so that seems to say something to this end.
Nope. That is not what I am suggesting nor is it something I was suggesting. That was a restatement, in my own words, the topic of this thread.Prometheus said:Are you suggesting that it is fear of punishment that causes "most" people to be honest?
This is incorrect -- in common speech, "they" is in agreement with "one" or "a person". I wasn't aware that this forum was part "rhetoric 101."I admire your use of the impersonal pronoun "one". Now, you might consider pronoun agreement, as "they" is not in accord with "one" or "a person". Also, you might consider the subjunctive.
I am sorry. I was just trying to be helpful.pmb_phy said:I wasn't aware that this forum was part "rhetoric 101."
I thought that once you know the precise grammatical form that you would jump on the opportunity to make use of it.pmb_phy said:I once believed what you do about what the term "most" means and it was pointed out to me that I was incorrect. I therefore have adjusted my use of the term to more accurately reflect the precise definition of the term.
I never said that "almost everyone" meant "more than 50%" any place. As I explained above "Almost everyone" to me would be something like 95%. When I said that the first time that is what my impression of the statistics are or were. I was going by my recollections of my religious courses. I guess I was off by about 20% and I explained that to you... and you pretend to honestly expect that I should recognize that "almost everyone in the world" means "at least 50%". Sure.
Except that you got it wrongPrometheus said:I thought that once you know the precise grammatical form that you would jump on the opportunity to make use of it.
Your statement is as incredibly enlightening and precise as we have come to expect from you.pmb_phy said:Except that you got it wrong
I've chosen to go to a philosophy forum to discuss philosophy, not grammar etc.Prometheus said:I am sorry. I was just trying to be helpful...
I thought that once you know the precise grammatical form that you would jump on the opportunity to make use of it.
You've gotten pretty sarcastic so I've lost interest in discussing anything with you. Especially off topic comments. Had I explained you'd probably start getting into a debate about grammar.Prometheus said:Your statement is as incredibly enlightening and precise as we have come to expect from you.
pmb_phy said:I think its pretty obvious that atheists are not considered to be dishonest as a group so that seems to say something to this end.