Israeli shooting

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  • #2
Pengwuino
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Oh yah i saw this a few hours ago. Another report said the guy went insane and started shooting people before commiting suicide.
 
  • #3
Mental Gridlock
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Peace has a chance to work here and we can see it now but not everyone wants it on both sides it's really very sad.
 
  • #4
Mental Gridlock
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Well CNN and MSNBC both said he was killed. I imagine he was trying to take out as many Arabs as he could before being taken out and you see a gigantic mob.
 
  • #5
Pengwuino
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Well it wont be hard to figure out. Just pull the bullet out of his brain lol. Or well, if theres more then 1 bullet, he was killed. If there was just one in the head, probably did it himself.
 
  • #6
Mental Gridlock
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  • #7
Lisa!
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Would Sharon condemn this attack if this person kill some Palestinian? I'm even in doubt if he would reffer to this person as a terrorist in that situation!
 
  • #8
Mental Gridlock
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Good question! Technically he ought to call it terrorism and you think he would because they were Israili people killed here but pallestinians maybe because it wasn't a routine shooting of the Israili army but a guy gone AWOL then nuts so this one is an easy call! What would he call any shootings of palestinians justified or not?

I edited this like 5 times already!
 
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  • #9
Lisa!
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Mental Gridlock said:
Good question! Technically he ought to call it terrorism and you think he would because they were Israili people killed here but pallestinians maybe because it wasn't a routine shooting of the Israili army but a guy gone AWOL then nuts so this one is an easy call! What would he call any shootings of palestinians justified or not?
Oh yeah! He even reffer to him as a "bloodthirsty Jewish terrorist". My information about Israel is very little. But I want to know if all Jewish who lives in Israel are Zionists!
 
  • #10
Pengwuino
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Mental Gridlock said:
He was trying to kill all the Arabs he could not himself I think you saw a different story.

Must have been one of those early report errors. I dont think there were any other israeli psychos blasting off civilians in the last few days.
 
  • #11
Pengwuino
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Lisa! said:
But I want to know if all Jewish who lives in Israel are Zionists!

Yes, just like all Americans are red necks and Europeans are devil worshippers :devil:

P.S. That means no there not
 
  • #12
Smurf
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Mental Gridlock said:
Good question! Technically he ought to call it terrorism and you think he would because they were Israili people killed here but pallestinians maybe because it wasn't a routine shooting of the Israili army but a guy gone AWOL then nuts so this one is an easy call! What would he call any shootings of palestinians justified or not?

I edited this like 5 times already!
And it still doesn't make any sense
 
  • #13
Yonoz
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Lisa! said:
Oh yeah! He even reffer to him as a "bloodthirsty Jewish terrorist". My information about Israel is very little. But I want to know if all Jewish who lives in Israel are Zionists!
Almost all Jews in Israel are Zionists. What would we be doing here otherwise?
 
  • #14
Smurf
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I was wondering the same thing, why would you live in israel if you weren't a zionist!? jewish or not.
 
  • #15
Yonoz
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Smurf said:
I was wondering the same thing, why would you live in israel if you weren't a zionist!? jewish or not.
There's few non-Jewish Zionists living in Israel. I suppose most Israeli Arabs do not consider themselves Zionists but I haven't researched that matter. The shooting being discussed occured in a Druze neighbourhood. The Druze have always been outstanding citizens and I suppose they consider themselves Zionists (with the exception of the Druze of the Golan Heights), which makes this action even more incomprehensible.
 
  • #16
Pengwuino
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I thought zionists were more hten just people who want an israeli state. Everyone makes it sound so evil... even though it sounds like its just like calling someone german or a californian or a human...
 
  • #17
Smurf
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Calling all zionists evil is like calling all Germans in ww2 Evil. In both cases it's mainly the extremists and the government doing the real harm. The people's only crime is that of inaction to stop it.
 
  • #18
Yonoz
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Smurf said:
Calling all zionists evil is like calling all Germans in ww2 Evil.
I wouldn't make that comparison...
 
  • #19
Smurf
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why not? ..........
 
  • #20
Yonoz
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Smurf said:
why not? ..........
Because there's a few major differences between the actions of Nazi Germany (primarily the attempted industrialised extermination of various innocent groups) and that of Israel (occupation of territory as another chapter in a continuing conflict).

Continuing on the topic of this thread, the Mayor of Rishon-Leziyon, where the murderer lived until a few months ago and where his family resides today, has refused to allow his burial in the municipality. The Defence minister has also disallowed a military burial, meaning the body will not be buried in the military section of whatever cemetery it will be buried in. The body will apparently be buried in the settlement of Tapuach, where the murderer resided for the past few months.
There are several protests around Shphar'am held by Jewish Israelis to show solidarity with the victims and the Arab communities.

[Added:] It now seems the secreteriate of Tapuach are unwilling to allow his burial there either. I do not know on what grounds they can refuse it, as the Mayor of Rishon Leziyon denied it on the grounds that the murderer was listed in the MoI as a resident of Tapuach and should be buried there.

[Added:] Source: Ha'aretz
 
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  • #21
hypatia
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It was sad news to hear, very sorry for the people who are victims. I hope people remain calm, and continue to work tward peace.
 
  • #22
Lisa!
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Yonoz said:
Almost all Jews in Israel are Zionists. What would we be doing here otherwise?
Well it's a bit starnge for me that Sharon emphasize on this person's religion.
Perhaps it's just my opinion. I can't explain more now.
 
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  • #23
Lisa!
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Yonoz said:
There's few non-Jewish Zionists living in Israel. I suppose most Israeli Arabs do not consider themselves Zionists but I haven't researched that matter.
Perhaps they do not agree with what zionists are doing. You know they're Arabs and Palestinians are Arab too. They had lived in peace before zionists came there and now they don't. They and Palestinians are Arabs anyway.
Anyway by what you said about Israeli Arabs, I suspect Sharon has emphasized on Jewish purposely!

Could you please explain more about zionism? I mean how different is from Judaism!
Sorry to ask this question. I know you lost some of your countrymates in the attack but it's been my question for a long time!
 
  • #24
russ_watters
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Simply put, Judaism is the religion and Zionism is the desire to set up a Jewish state in Israel (a nationalist, not religious movement). Being Jewish doesn't automatically make you Zionist any more than being Christian makes you want to move to Vatican City.
 
  • #25
Lisa!
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But there must be another differences. Zionists say they want to set up a Jewish state in Israel because somehow it's their religious duty.(please correct my mistake if I'm wrong about that) So I can't understand why all Jews don't suppport them!
 
  • #26
russ_watters
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Lisa! said:
But there must be another differences. Zionists say they want to set up a Jewish state in Israel because somehow it's their religious duty.(please correct my mistake if I'm wrong about that) So I can't understand why all Jews don't suppport them!
I'm a Presbyterian, not a Catholic, but both are Christian. Not all Christians believe the same things and not all Jews believe the same things either.

edit: Caveat - I'm actually not sure about the religious duty thing. I did not think that was a component of the religion, but either way, it is not a desire shared by all Jews or a part of the beliefs in all segments of Judaism. THIS link stronly implies that it has nothing to do with the religion at all.
Zionist ideology holds that the Jews are a people or nation like any other, and should gather together in a single homeland. Zionism was self-consciously the Jewish analogue of Italian and German national liberation movements of the nineteenth century. The term "Zionism" was apparently coined in 1891 by the Austrian publicist Nathan Birnbaum, to describe the new ideology, but it was used retroactively to describe earlier efforts and ideas to return the Jews to their homeland for whatever reasons, and it is applied to Evangelical Christians who want people of the Jewish religion to return to Israel in order to hasten the second coming.
 
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  • #27
Yonoz
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Lisa! said:
But there must be another differences. Zionists say they want to set up a Jewish state in Israel because somehow it's their religious duty.(please correct my mistake if I'm wrong about that) So I can't understand why all Jews don't suppport them!
Russ answered that question well, maybe I can provide a little insight into my view of Zionism.
There's religious Zionists as well as non-religious Zionists. Some Zionists believe in a larger Israel, comprising of the territory that made biblical Israel, and some believe Israel should be confined to the territory it held prior to the 6-day war. These are a few difficult questions that have never been agreed upon by all Zionists. There's also Labor Zionism and Revisionist Zionism and other conflicting ideas.
My grandparents moved to Israel in the beginning of the 20th century because they realised Jews should have a homeland. This had nothing to do with religion. European Jews were persecuted at every stage of history, and so many tried to assimilate into their societies, living a secular life which imitated that of their neighbours'. My great-grandfather for example was an officer in the Kaiser's Army, who served during the entire world war, and a prominent Viennese Lawyer. However, that didn't help avoid the persecution - Jews still faced racism and hatred. Some then realised they must have their own country if they ever want to be truly accepted anywhere. The obvious choice was Palestine - it was quite desolate and under the control of the decaying Ottoman Empire. Some Jews started buying lands and lobbying with Ottoman, Austrian and other leaders and politicians in order to gain lands in Palestine to start building a homeland. My grandmother, even though she lacked nothing in her life as an Austrian, decided as a teenager to come and help build a Jewish state in Palestine, as did many other European Jews. She attended a short preparation in a farm in Europe, where she learnt basic agriculture, and came to Palestine when she was 17 years old. She was part of a small group that was positioned in legally bought land that was mainly swampland. These groups are called Kibbutzim (plural for Kibbutz), and were usually secular socialist communities. They set up camp on a hill and began planting eucalypts in the swampland around it. The eucalypts were used all over Israel since they grow quickly and regulate water in the soil - they dry swampland quickly and can still survive years of drought. As land began to dry they planted crops. Many got Malaria (my grandmother caught it a few times) and were sent to special recovery hospices established solely for the recovery of Malaria suffering settlers. They brought in water and supplies from the closest town by horse, until they dug a well and the crops began to grow. The first building built was made a mess hall until some couples had babies and then it was made into a nursery. Parents were allowed to see their children for a limited time every day, and their caretaker was issued more food than others and was forbidden all sorts of things deemed unhealthy, so that the children would not catch any diseases in these difficult conditions. As more and more land became cropland some neighbouring Palestinian families moved permanently to a nearby site usually inhabited only in summertime. They had quite good relations with the Kibbutz until the hostilities prior to the War of Independence.
After a few more communal buildings were built they could afford to start building houses. They also started more intensive farmwork, such as growing livestock and poultry. Since they were secular they even bred pigs, but that was later stopped. Factories were started, making barrels and canned food. A contract to supply Jam to the British Army during the mandate meant a great expansion to the canned foods factory, which grew ever since and today it is one of the largest in Israel, in a partnership with Coca-Cola and exporting all over the world.
Today, most Kibbutz-dwellers are dovish Labor voters, in favour of establishing a Palestinian state. They're quite content with what's been achieved so far and see no need to pursue any more territorial expansion. I believe modern Zionism should concentrate on strengthening the Israeli state and society, by ending the conflict and establishing a flourishing middle-east, as was laid out By Shimon Peres in "The New Middle East". Israel has the share of problems that other countries face, and the conflict with the Palestinians means these problems aren't getting the attention they deserve. I think religion is too dominant in the state, and would like to see it become more liberal.
That's the type of Zionism I hold. I suppose a religious Zionist will have a different view of Zionism, as would a modern Jewish settler.
 
  • #28
Joel
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In answer to Lisa's question about Sharon's statement:

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon condemned the attack, calling it "a reprehensible act of a bloodthirsty Jewish terrorist who sought to attack innocent Israeli citizens."

"This terrorist event was a deliberate attempt to harm the fabric of relations among all Israeli citizens," Sharon said in a statement issued by his office.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/04/bus.shooting/
 
  • #29
Lisa!
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Thanks all of you. I have some other questions about this topic but I prefer to ask them later!
 

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