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Israel's Gaza fuel cuts

  1. Oct 29, 2007 #1

    mjsd

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    it is unfortunate that it has come down to this...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068239.stm

    this conflict has no real winners... :frown:
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Oct 29, 2007 #2
    IT is unfortunate, makes me wonder how long Hamas will continue launching rockets into random residential zones
     
  4. Oct 29, 2007 #3
    Yes honestly - I think its time to stop painting Israelis as criminals for trying to live in the midst of constant rocket attacks =\
     
  5. Oct 30, 2007 #4

    Art

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    No-one is suggesting firing rockets into Israel is okay but is collective punishment justified? Israel is no stranger to committing atrocities herself so should all Israeli citizens also be collectively punished by the world community for the actions of it's criminals?
     
  6. Oct 31, 2007 #5
    yeah this is really easy for you to say when you don't have rockets landing in your backyard every week, honestly.... If my life was threatened like this on a daily basis I would certainly support measures to make life more difficult for hamas.
     
  7. Oct 31, 2007 #6
    What atrocities has Israel committed? Other than defending their right to an existence.
     
  8. Oct 31, 2007 #7

    mjsd

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    this is an interesting comment. Perhaps the Hamas/Palestine citizens have the same mentality too....their livelihood is now under threat so they may continue support measures to make life more difficult for the Israeli residents in the border towns ??

    let's hope they don't take that view and stop those rockets once and for all and start negotiating
     
  9. Oct 31, 2007 #8

    mjsd

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    that really depends on how we define what qualify as an atrocity or how serious something is before it is called an atrocity. Some ppl may believe that any act of war/invasion/incursion is an atrocity; some may however disagree pending on the reasons for war. So, it is hard to have an universal agreement on this.
     
  10. Oct 31, 2007 #9

    Art

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    I suspect you might find it is the Palestinians who are struggling to survive both as individuals and as a people. The Israelis are under no such threat with one of the largest and nuclear armed forces in the world. This nonsense of 'our survival is under threat' is simply the standard piece of rhetoric churned out by Israel to justify the use of vastly disproportionate acts of violence perpetrated against a mainly civilian non-combatant population.

    Some pictures of Israeli atrocities.

    warning - graphic photos.

    http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html
     
  11. Nov 1, 2007 #10

    mjsd

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    collective punishment usually does more harm than good.

    i'm not sure about this latest case, will have to wait and see.... hopefully full power is back on at the time of writing.
     
  12. Nov 1, 2007 #11

    russ_watters

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    It isn't rhetoric and it isn't Israel saying it, Art, and you know it. It is the explicitly stated goal of Israel's enemies. Israel may be (is) powerful enough to defend against that threat, but that doesn't mean the threat does not exist.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2007
  13. Nov 1, 2007 #12

    Art

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    Are you seriously suggesting that the various ragtag elements which comprise the Palestinian resistance constitute a credible threat to the existence of Israel and so validate the overwhelming use of force, detention without trial and torture employed by the Israelis? You are kidding right?? Following your argument I suppose you must think the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto who wanted the end of Nazism posed a credible threat to the third Reich and so the Nazis were justified in the level of force and the tactics they used in putting down their uprising? The situations are parallel.
     
  14. Nov 1, 2007 #13

    Hurkyl

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    Palestinian militants are certainly enough of a threat to warrant a response.

    Which, of course, is the fault of the Palestinian militants who use civilian non-combatants as human shields, and not the fault of Israelis.


    Do we agree on these specific points?

    (some examples: if you believe that "The current Israeli response is warranted", the answer for my first point would be 'yes'. If you believe "Israelis need to respond, but currently they are doing too much", the answer for my first point would still be 'yes'. If you believe "Israelis should ignore Palestinian militants completely", then the answer for my first point would be 'no')
     
  15. Nov 2, 2007 #14

    mjsd

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    No human shields in this case I am afriad.... power cuts would hurt the whole lot regardless. So if you don't agree with collective punishment (which you may not) then it is definitely the fault of the Israelis.

    there are many types of response other than missiles and power cuts. it is unfortunate that both sides opted to use bombs...
     
  16. Nov 2, 2007 #15

    Hurkyl

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    I was talking about "violence perpetrated against a mainly civilian non-combatant population."


    I asked a specific question in my post -- it was directed at Art, but I'll redirect it at you:
    do you agree or disagree with the statement "Palestinian militants are certainly enough of a threat to warrant a response [from Isreal]."?

    For the purposes of this question, I don't care one whit about what responses are possible, about any sort of advantages and disadvantages they might have, nor anyone's opinion on those responses.

    Since it is not crystal clear to me, I am simply trying to establish whether or not everyone in this discussion agrees that an Israeli response is warranted.
     
  17. Nov 2, 2007 #16

    Lets not forget that there was no Israel before the '48 Arab-Israel war. As a result of this war the Israelis occupied nearly 70% of what was Palestine, leaving the Arab population as refuges in their own land.

    Since then the Israelis have systematically and deliberately suppressed the Palestinains, slowly grabing more of their land. Hundreds of Palestinian prisoners languish in Israeli jails with no hope of fair trail, apart from various other hardships imposed on them.

    What is happening is nothing short of a slow genocide of the Palestinian people.

    "Israeli response" is only a twisted term for this continous oppression
     
  18. Nov 2, 2007 #17

    mjsd

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    Even in that case, one must think twice before striking civilian areas.

    In practice, I am very much interested to know on how many occasions those strikes by Israel on civilians area actually kills more militants than civilians. And on how many occasions that their intelligence is actually correct that they have striked the correct locations. I understand that collateral damage is unavoidable sometimes, but the only way to reduce collateral damage is to aim away from civilian areas!! OR stop this kind of collective punsihment. It is probably counter-productivity in the longer run.
     
  19. Nov 2, 2007 #18
    Please enlighten us.
     
  20. Nov 2, 2007 #19
    It is thought over more than twice.

    That is done when possible: Video: Terrorists firing mortars from schoolyard.

    Striking militants firing weapons at Israeli civilians is not collective punishment, it is self defense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2007
  21. Nov 2, 2007 #20

    mjsd

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    I was referring to the recent "power cut" when I say collective punishment which is the main topic of this thread by the way.

    not so long ago there were ppl on this forum claimed that Israel has the capability to cut Palestine Powers/fuels, but Israel has been too nice to commit such acts.... oh well... what happened to that kind of "generosity" Israel used to possess ???
     
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