Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants

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"Must be a nuclear fission explosion", comparing #1 to #3, not mentioning the different containment etc, comparing the hot, rising gases to a nuke. Facepalm.

That "expert" should go write novels.
The only conformation to such an event is the readings from the blast which have not been forthcoming, only hints, such as from the harden bunker control room, of course ignoring all the other fallout in the no-go zone, worldwide and the seawater. I think it was Washington State University reported their filters picked up fallout days after the Unit 1 explosion and they analyzed the contaminates after sorting out background noise and Chernobyl signatures and concluded the Unit 1 was in a state of shutdown at the time of the blast...Haven't heard much from them lately. Also, never heard the conclusion why a reactor in Virgina shut itself down, shades of Sweden's sensor alarm going off after the Chernobyl event where the Russian's failed to give notice.

We'll just throw that "expert" under the bus.
 
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"Must be a nuclear fission explosion", comparing #1 to #3, not mentioning the different containment etc, comparing the hot, rising gases to a nuke. Facepalm.

That "expert" should go write novels.
Yes, thanks for the laugh :-) Ignoring the different building technique of unit 1 and 2, comparing them as if they were equal. Ignoring that a mushrooming cloud, is indicator for high buoyancy airmasses, but is not a hallmark of nuclear fission. Seeking evidence to support his hypothesis, rather than trying to weaken it.. And the last thing I heard him say was so pitiful so I had to let him go: (paraphrasing) 'Unfortunately Tepco sits on the evidence that could prove me right'.
 

NUCENG

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Yes, thanks for the laugh :-) Ignoring the different building technique of unit 1 and 2, comparing them as if they were equal. Ignoring that a mushrooming cloud, is indicator for high buoyancy airmasses, but is not a hallmark of nuclear fission. Seeking evidence to support his hypothesis, rather than trying to weaken it.. And the last thing I heard him say was so pitiful so I had to let him go: (paraphrasing) 'Unfortunately Tepco sits on the evidence that could prove me right'.
The truth will come out, The Japanese in collusion with the United States and the Aliens planted four missuing suitcase nucs stolen from Russia. There is a massive coverup including Bigfoot, Godzilla and a Yeti for good measure. The man with the umbrella on the grassy knoll is somehow involved. Bush lied and people died. It is the oil companies who are behind it all and the bankers are aiding and abetting. But Elvis will return in December of 2012 to release his new Album Armageddon, chapter 1). There is nothing we can do except head for the nearest crop circle and sing Kumbaya.
 

NUCENG

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The truth will come out, The Japanese in collusion with the United States and the Aliens planted four missuing suitcase nucs stolen from Russia. There is a massive coverup including Bigfoot, Godzilla and a Yeti for good measure. The man with the umbrella on the grassy knoll is somehow involved. Bush lied and people died. It is the oil companies who are behind it all and the bankers are aiding and abetting. But Elvis will return in December of 2012 to release his new Album Armageddon, chapter 1). There is nothing we can do except head for the nearest crop circle and sing Kumbaya.
I shouldn't have said that, Now they will quote me as proof!
 
Hello at all,

not my language, so I keep it short. My guess is, they opened the wall of No.4 in the past ("the green plug") and removed the staircase later:

http://img717.imageshack.us/i/holestairway.jpg
I have to correct myself, the stairway of No.4 was in place two hours after the earthquake:

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp3/pict53.jpg

found here: http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp3/daiichi-photos3.htm
 

htf

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The only conformation to such an event is the readings from the blast which have not been forthcoming
If the Japanese had disclosed their all their data there wouldn't be so much speculation.

I have the growing feeling that TEPCO has a lot to hide. It has been explained with cultural differences that TEPCO has rejected any help by foreign expert. Maybe so. But maybe they have to hide some "special industrial secrets" like the extra cooling system for SFP#4 that Jorge Stolfi may have discovered.

The explosions have been discussed here back and forth - I didn't follow this discussion in detail. Are there any estimations how much energy during explosion of unit #3 has been released?
 
When looking at these graphs it is quite clear that there is only a short correlation between the radioactive concentration of the sea water and the outflow of pit water:

http://varasto.kerrostalo.huone.net/leak_1.png
http://varasto.kerrostalo.huone.net/leak_2.png

And the other problem is that we have no data for the radioactive concentration of the sea water between 11th and 20th of March. The first data TEPCO gave was detected on 21st of March, taken around the south discharge canal:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11032201-e.html

So their calculations concerning the amount of radioactive leak into the sea are far too low, there is no doubt about it.

The source of the graphs:
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110425-3-2.pdf [Broken]
 
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The truth will come out, The Japanese in collusion with the United States and the Aliens planted four missuing suitcase nucs stolen from Russia. There is a massive coverup including Bigfoot, Godzilla and a Yeti for good measure. The man with the umbrella on the grassy knoll is somehow involved. Bush lied and people died. It is the oil companies who are behind it all and the bankers are aiding and abetting. But Elvis will return in December of 2012 to release his new Album Armageddon, chapter 1). There is nothing we can do except head for the nearest crop circle and sing Kumbaya.
:rofl:


Interesting: Radioactivity in the air is going up...

[PLAIN]http://www.bfs.de/de/ion/imis/ctbto_aktivitaetskonzentrationen_caesium.gif [Broken]

[PLAIN]http://www.bfs.de/de/ion/imis/ctbto_aktivitaetskonzentrationen_jod.gif [Broken]
 
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<..> Im not sure why I care that much about this though, given that it still looks a bit like a shadow to me, and that even if we do confirm it as being something, so what, what does it tell us?
Er, it would tell us something we didn't know before. Knowledge is good.

Of the possibilities i have pondered to explain this foobar there are two, which I have conclusively excluded.

1) that there isn't really something there.
On the grounds that there are way too many independently taken photos that shows the phenomenon for it to be fluke.

2) that it is a shadow.
On the grounds that we have visuals of the phenomenon under weather conditions that do not allow sunlight to produce a shadow. However much something may look like a shadow, if you can see it on an overcast day then a shadow it is not.

Other possibilities, I have pondered:

4) A stain on the wall.
This appears to be in some conflict with a photo taken right along the east wall. Then we cannot see the wall, but we still see a bright thing hanging a meter or more out from the wall at the spot. Stains are flatter than that.

5) An open door. This is a special case of 'a hole'. This is in some conflict with the apparent irregular shape of the upper boundary of the phenomenon.

6) Some wreckage from the tsunami plastered to the wall. This cannot be excluded, however improbably high this wreckage would have to have been thrown seen in relation to the measured inundation height. Waves of water is quite able to do improbable feats with things when splashing between buildings.

Do we have any idea when humans last entered the service floor of reactor 2? We hear that humans arent going inside the main reactor buildings, but Im not sure if they count the service floor as slightly different?
My idea is that no human has set foot in unit 2 since it blew. The service floor appears to be an inhospitable sauna, filled with radioactive steam.

Would they have had to remove the blast panel from the inside? And how did they obtain the spent fuel pool/skimmer surge pool water sample from unit 2 without entering some part of the building? This leads me to wonder if humans still have access to that area.
Good questions. I am not qualified to do the second question. As to the first, judging from satellite photos, the unit2 blast panel was removed or fell off at some time between 10:38 JST on March the 12th, and 9:52 JST on March 13th. (This can be known from satellite photos). I have looked for but not found any announcement from Tepco saying they removed the panel from unit 2, whereas they did announce the later deliberately made holes in unit 5/6. It might seem a bit strange if they did a precautionary removal of the unit 2 blast panel, after seeing what happened to unit 1, while not giving unit 3 the same treatment at the same occasion. I'd put my money on that it fell, rather than was removed. Within the time-frame in which the blast panel got off the building, unit 1 exploded closeby (15:36 on March the 12th) and a strong aftershock hit (22:15 on March 12th). I think it fell off, rather than was removed, but if it was removed, I think one would need to access the service floor to do it.
 

Astronuc

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
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That's a good idea. I wonder if there is a way to do that so it is avilable for reference without searching through over 5000 posts. Maybe Borek or Astronuc can help us find a way to do it.
This is tricky. The only way I can think about is to edit the very first post in the thread so that it contains kind of "executive summary" for the current situation/state of knowledge/list of known problems. That has to be done by one of the Mentors, as there is a limit to how long posts can be edited by their own authors.

I have no problems with doing the editing every few days, but the text has to be prepared by someone else. If anyone is ready and willing to do it, please contact me by PM.
Alternatively, it may be better for someone to initiate a new thread concerning "unresolved questions about the Fukushima event", and that thread can be stickied in the forum. We could divide the thread into groups of 30 or so pages (1-30, 31-60, . . ) or groups of 25, and ask folks to browse the pages for unresolved questions. We could then link back to the thread/posts. Alternatively, it may be better for those asking questions to determine if their particularly question remains unresolved.
 
I found this video on youtube.

http://youtu.be/1Q3ljfLvHww

It is a interesting view on the second explosion.

ps: i think the are a lot of differences between both explosions. the colour, the size and the power.

sorry my bad english.

thank you for your work on physics forum
 
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I found this video on youtube.

http://youtu.be/1Q3ljfLvHww

It is a interesting view on the second explosion.

ps: i think the are a lot of differences between both explosions. the colour, the size and the power.

sorry my bad english.

thank you for your work on physics forum
I've posted some explanation. Didn't really estimate the explosion energy though... not enough data, don't know the weight of dust in cloud etc.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3251659&postcount=3998
 
about the second explosion:

it wasnt eally a beautyfull nuclear explosion.
why:

the materials from the building makes a imperfect or unperfect explosion.
we have a lot of stell and concret. this materials make a "beautyfull explosion impossible.

yes, my english is#nt good. i hope, you can understand my opinion. ;=))
 
Before someone blows away my neat explanation for the "hole", let me build further castles on top of it:

With the recent re-racking, the unloading of the reactor, and the arrival of new fuel, the heat generated in the #4 SFP overloaded the existing coolers. So TEPCO installed a temporary extra SFP cooler outside the building (the green box). The earthquake knocked loose the cooler, and the water from the SFP started leaking out through the broken pipes. That is the "missing leak" in #4's SFP.
tempting theory.
however, full core dumps has been done before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Galatis). if there has been a problem with the heat removal, it should not have lasted more than a few days.

the core dump was in november, the 'green something' is visible on photos taken in september.

but maybe you are right. a full core dump takes the cooling capacities to their limits:
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1995/in95054.html

so maybe they have installed an additional backup system?

interesting:
'The spent fuel pool cooling system is not a safety-related system and is not required to operate following events such as earthquake, fire, passive failures or multiple active failures.' (from http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/new-reactors/design-cert/ap1000/dcd/Tier 2/Chapter 9/9-1_r15.pdf)
 
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Er, it would tell us something we didn't know before. Knowledge is good.
I guess I just get easily frustrated by how much we are still left to speculation at this point, and I fear people have been trying too hard to learn something new from photos that may not have all that much more to give us. I crave new images etc.

Good questions. I am not qualified to do the second question. As to the first, judging from satellite photos, the unit2 blast panel was removed or fell off at some time between 10:38 JST on March the 12th, and 9:52 JST on March 13th. (This can be known from satellite photos). I have looked for but not found any announcement from Tepco saying they removed the panel from unit 2, whereas they did announce the later deliberately made holes in unit 5/6. It might seem a bit strange if they did a precautionary removal of the unit 2 blast panel, after seeing what happened to unit 1, while not giving unit 3 the same treatment at the same occasion. I'd put my money on that it fell, rather than was removed. Within the time-frame in which the blast panel got off the building, unit 1 exploded closeby (15:36 on March the 12th) and a strong aftershock hit (22:15 on March 12th). I think it fell off, rather than was removed, but if it was removed, I think one would need to access the service floor to do it.
I seem to recall at least one news story that made it sound like they actively removed the blast panel at 2, talking about brave workers facing tough conditions, but it could have been wrong given how many mistakes have been made in reporting of this disaster.

As for my question about how they got the skimmer surge tank sample from reactor building 2, I can answer my own question, and I should already have known this as I had seen the detail before but forgot. These diagrams were issued by TEPCO along with the results of the water sampling, and it shows how they were able to take a sample from the skimmer surge tank without needing to be in the reactor building:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110418e5.pdf
 
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something to be added to the open questions list:

#4: 'At approximately 6:00 am on March 15th, we confirmed the explosive sound
and the sustained damage around the 5th floor rooftop area of the Nuclear
Reactor Building.'

#2: 'At approximately 6:00 am on March 15th, an abnormal noise began emanating
from nearby Pressure Suppression Chamber and the pressure within the
chamber decreased.'

two completely independent events at exactly the same time? hard to believe, but i can not find an explanation how these events could be related. i have checked: no earthquake recorded at that time (used: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/epic/epic_circ.php [Broken] 6:00AM JST-> 21:00PM on 14th UTC. location of plant roughly 37.25N 141.0E).
 
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Thanks, rowmag. What about "blueprint", "drawing" and maybe "technical drawing"?
Drawing, diagram: 図面
Design diagram: 設計図
Construction diagram: 施工図
Cross-sectional diagram: 断面図
Elevation plan: 立面図

Speaking of which, Tokyo Electric is not happy about the building diagrams for Unit 1 that have been circulating on "physics-related website(s)," citing regulations on nuclear materials protection:
http://www.asahi.com/special/10005/TKY201104250626.html
They have also previously refused to release drawings in order to protect trade secrets.
 
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Anyway for those that want to continue the somewhat maddening quest to squeeze fresh speculation out of existing photos, I really do recommend those Oyster Creek plans that were linked to on this thread in the past.

Specifically as it relates to the present unit 4 speculation, try page 23 of the following document:

http://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/IDMWS/ViewDocByAccession.asp?AccessionNumber=ML011270300

Using the spent fuel pool & reactor locations to orientate ourselves with this plan of another plant and unit 4 at fukushima, the area at the top right of this drawing is the area of interest. Note 'personnel access enclosure', and cable tray bridges that are also said to be in this area. Also see location of spent fuel pool pumps, and further to the left some fuel pool heat exchangers. Also round the corner on the next side of the reactor building there are augmented pumps and heat exchangers for the fuel pool.

Now clearly there are dangers with using the plans for a different reactor but many of the things that are likely the same or different compared to Fukushima are fairly easy to identify. The most noticeable differences are that at oyster creek the dryer separator pool is oriented differently, and the equipment hatch & truck entry tunnel is on the left rather than the right side of the building. But many other features seem very similar, crucially the location of the reactor and spent fuel pool seeming like a good match, make it far too tempting for me to resist using these docs.

Anyway based on these docs Id say we could easily be seeing 2 different things going on at that location at reactor 4. A door. A shadow cast by the cable tray bridges. And maybe a 3rd option, green tarpaulin covering some sort of equipment at some point.

At this point the vehicle that is shown some way inside the unit 4 vehicle tunnel on some photos but is missing from other pictures interests me as much if not more.

And its the fuel pool itself that still interests me most. I wonder things like 'does the skimmer surge tank still exist at unit 4?'. And whether the pools got more damaged by subsequent quakes, whether there has been a change in leak rate or boil rate. When TEPCOs roadmap was published and included mention of putting a supporting structure under unit 4's pool, I felt reporters have failed us by not dwelling on this or asking more questions. And it was certainly interesting that news that they were going to spray water in more cautiously came out days later, but collided badly with events on the ground which were taking quite the opposite turn, with far more water having been sprayed of late, not less, to deal with high temperature they measured and then acted almost surprised about (surprised, really?) Any of the other pools could yet tell a story too.
 
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A very decent satellite photo from Geoeye, from April 12th, can be seen at:
http://geoeyemediaportal.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/images/gallery/ge1/hires/fukushima_daiichi_okuma_japan_04_12_11.jpg

Among other changes compared to earlier photos, one is struck by the green coloration of those areas which had already been subjected to antidust sprayings by April 12th.

(Would like to see how much greener Daiichi has become now, 14 days later on. After finishing those slopes at unit 2 and 3, 4, they did sizeable areas at the Centralized Radwaste treatment facility, and more recently they did large tracts over at unit 5. Spraying is now being done at the seaside of unit 1 to 4, by, quote Tepco press release, an 'unmanned crawler dump truck in full swing'. Would like to see that too.)
 
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I guess I just get easily frustrated by how much we are still left to speculation at this point, and I fear people have been trying too hard to learn something new from photos that may not have all that much more to give us. I crave new images etc.
I can understand that, one cannot and should not try to 'make bricks without straw'. Otoh old evidence may sometimes yield more on reviewing, as time passes and it can be seen in the light of newer evidence. Also I have been startled by how much I can have been blind to in a video, even when I think I have rehashed it to staleness.

I found and posted a link to a quite decent, and rather more recent (mid April) satellite photo. If you like I haven't seen it before it might still your craving. For a little while :-)
 
Good questions. I am not qualified to do the second question. As to the first, judging from satellite photos, the unit2 blast panel was removed or fell off at some time between 10:38 JST on March the 12th, and 9:52 JST on March 13th. (This can be known from satellite photos). I have looked for but not found any announcement from Tepco saying they removed the panel from unit 2, whereas they did announce the later deliberately made holes in unit 5/6. It might seem a bit strange if they did a precautionary removal of the unit 2 blast panel, after seeing what happened to unit 1, while not giving unit 3 the same treatment at the same occasion. I'd put my money on that it fell, rather than was removed. Within the time-frame in which the blast panel got off the building, unit 1 exploded closeby (15:36 on March the 12th) and a strong aftershock hit (22:15 on March 12th). I think it fell off, rather than was removed, but if it was removed, I think one would need to access the service floor to do it.
I recall there was a report that workers opened the hole in the side of Unit 2 at great hazard to themselves. I'll have to search for a link. As time goes on we will see many of the original news reports disappearing from the web. I already have a bunch of links to news media sources' articles that are now invalid.
 
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Anyway based on these docs Id say we could easily be seeing 2 different things going on at that location at reactor 4. A door. A shadow cast by the cable tray bridges. And maybe a 3rd option, green tarpaulin covering some sort of equipment at some point.
Polyethylene tarp?
(This one is flame-retardant):
http://www.shizaiya.com/products/547/
PID547.jpg
 
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<..>
the vehicle that is shown some way inside the unit 4 vehicle tunnel on some photos but is missing from other pictures interests me as much if not more.<..>
What about it Steve? What I see from looking at photos I get the clear impression that the vehicle (a huge truck) was in the vehicle tunnel behind closed doors when an explosion in unit 4 smacked the vehicle tunnel real hard, blew the vehicle right out through the doors, and in the process unloaded some of its cargo on the ground.
 

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