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Japan vs China

  1. Aug 11, 2004 #1
    From TSN

    I understand that this is soccer and that soccer fans are known to do extremely crazy things but this is getting very personal.

    Japan should really watch what they say in their newspapers, as in, don't provoke China. China, or at least the Chinese fans should hold their temper and realize it's a soccer game.

    Obviously, the Chinese are still angry about the WWII incidents, and I don't blame them. However, the Japanese embassy in Beijing had to be sealed off.

    Riot cops are not uncommon after big soccer matches, but many Japanese fans were unable to leave and fights with the police occured.

    Do you think this will amount to anything bigger? What will happen in the next Asia cup? :uhh:

    Note:, this belongs in World Affairs because it is an affair involving China and Japan, two Countries in this World, involving previous world affairs. It's sports, but still...
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2004
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 11, 2004 #2

    jimmy p

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    Probably the same thing will happen in the next Asia Cup. It has been running for a while now and there is always an animosity between countries like that. Take Turkey and England. Great football hatred there. Or England and Germany, as the old chant goes "Two world wars and one world cup". It's football, and hooligans are everywhere across the world giving the beautiful game a bad name.
     
  4. Aug 11, 2004 #3
    I'm not a soccer fan, so I wouldn't know.

    However, do those Countries throw racist comments, and attack their own police?
     
  5. Aug 12, 2004 #4

    jimmy p

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    Oh yeah, it happens all the time. There was a period when England was having trouble with eastern European countries because they had black players, and the Eastern bloc fans would make monkey noises every time they came near the crowd. All fans seem to attack the police, and most of the abuse is probably due to racism which can cause the fights.
     
  6. Aug 18, 2004 #5
    We hate japan because she killed many chinese in World War II.
    They are barbaric.
     
  7. Aug 18, 2004 #6
    I supported China to win the Asia Cup at first. I've lived there whilst studying the language and am quite familiar with the place.

    After seeing the treatment of Japanese team at the hands of Chinese fans I dumped my support of China immediately and cheered on Japan for all I was worth. They deserved to win after having to play their matches in such hostile conditions. They showed alot of character to instead of crumble, plug away and emerge with the cup.

    Surely the current generation of Japanese people should not be blamed for their ancestor's faults? Holding a grudge is one thing, as is not forgetting the past- but I've lost counts of howmany times when I was in China a Chinese person would irrationally spout hatred of the Japanese people. It's one hell of a grudge I tell you. Dont' get we wrong, I totally condemn the actions of WWII and the pain and suffering that China and the Chinese people were subjected to, but if you encounter the irrational babble believe me, it comes across pretty immature at this stage.
     
  8. Aug 19, 2004 #7
    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

    Forgive me for disbelieving your claim to speak for all Chinese.

    It is always easier to cry about others. China, of course, has never acted so barbaric in its history, has it.
     
  9. Aug 19, 2004 #8

    selfAdjoint

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    Let's just accept up front that all nations are barbaric at times and move on from there, shall we?
     
  10. Aug 20, 2004 #9

    Nereid

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    Where did you study? My impression is that the intensity of feeling varies greatly from place to place in China. Did you have a chance to listen to some of the older generation's personal stories of their time under Japanese occupation?

    Saint: which province in China is your home?

    There's a serious issue here - how does a community deal with horrors like the rape of Nanjing, Rwanda, Bosnia, Palestine? How do individuals 'get over' the rage, bitterness, hatred?

    From what little I've read, some things seem to help (e.g. the Truth & Reconcilliation activities in South Africa, restitution by perpetrators such Germany after WW II). Re Japan and China (and also Japan and Korea), it would seem that sincere statements of apology would go a long way, as would greater accuracy in the history texts which Japanese schoolkids study, and a more conciliatory approach than honouring convicted war criminals.
     
  11. Aug 20, 2004 #10
    There is another factor at work. In China, it is not considered poor behavior to cheer wildly for the home team and jeer loudly at the opposing team. Claiming that the reason to jeer Japan is due to an act of history is not necessarily an accurate statement.
     
  12. Aug 22, 2004 #11
    Perhaps. I suppose there are many factors to consider. I don know that at the Uni I studied at though, the Japanese students were advised to pretend they were Korean to avoid possible troubles in the country.

    I studied.. wait for it... at Nanjing University. So I suppose I was in an extreme place to witness the ill feeling.

    I agree about reconciliation though. Problem is, I understand the Japanese still deny certain units during that war that carried out gruesome experiments etc on Chinese people. Furthermore, their school textbooks, are a long way off teaching the younger generations the terible nature of that part of their history. So yes, I agree that some degree of pissed offfedness (for lack of a better word) is warranted.

    But at the end of the day, the way I've seen alot of Chinese people refer to Japanese does not separate past from present. A thing that most people I know have managed to do with Germany.
     
  13. Aug 22, 2004 #12
    Would you like to gave us an example where China attacked another Country, raping their people, cutting their heads off and killing 300,000 people? Think hard before you reply to this. Make sure you find an event that has just as many people killed from another Country - just as cruely too. Since you claim that China has been just as barbaric, you should be able to back-up your claims.

    What's even worse is that some right-wing organizations in Japan claim this never happened. Sick and disgusting. Doing something like that and not having the balls to admit it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2004
  14. Aug 23, 2004 #13
    Oh. Your conditions are so intimidating. Can I back up my claims? What a difficult challenge. Even though you tell me to think hard, perhaps a few examples off the top of my head might suffice.

    I notice that you say they must be killed from another country, thereby ruling out domestic examples such as Qin Shi-Huang, the first emperor of China, who cut off hundreds and hundreds of thousands of heads at a time, many times. He once cut off 400,000 heads, after they had surrendered. Do you consider this sufficiently cruel as to be on a par for cruelty? I don't know why you disallow domestic examples, however, since China's domestic cruelty many, many times over the millennia should be fair game. Perhaps as well when you say "another" country, you are ruling out Taiwan, where Chiang Kai-Shek killed large numbers of locals, stole their country, and relegated the survivors to second rate citizens for a generation. I don't think that he cut off their heads, however.

    You are using absolute numbers and specific methods of cruelty. Is that really fair? Isn't proportional numbers of people and equivalent methods sufficient for you?

    How about Vietnam? How about Tibet? How about Mongolia?

    Are you asking me this question because you really do not know how incredibly cruel and ruthless China has been to its enemies on many occasions over the millennia, or because you want to knitpick and say that China's incredible cruelty to its own people, to Mongolia, to Tibet, etc. was not quite as bad as Nanjing, and therefore should not be considered significant?
     
  15. Aug 23, 2004 #14
    I think that your response is extremely unwarranted. Are you Chinese?

    Do you think that the Americans teach in schools that germ warfare was used against the Indians? Do you think that the Australians teach what they did to the Aborigines? Do you think that China teaches that their "first emperor", Qin Shi-Huang, for all of his wonderful achievements and significant contributions, was a ruthless and extremely curel and brutal destroyer of people?

    Yes, I think that while your sentiment might be good, that your words here are uncalled for, unless you are Chinese and old enough to have lived through the event in question.
     
  16. Aug 23, 2004 #15
    Are you Japanese?


    Japan has had a history of completely dyning their faults in World War 2.

    A reason why the movie Pearl Harbor in Japan mentioned little about Japans attack, instead of a love story

    If the movie portrays Japan in a negative way," he says, "it won't be a hit."

    What a surprise! I guess the Japanese have absolutely no problem ignoring their history!

    The Americans and Germans don't deny their faults in World War II. The US will teach about slave history and what they did to the Natives.

    Japan has been known to cover up their history of violence and aggression.

    You mean the guy who lead the war to resist Japan? The same Japan that invaded his Country and killed hundred thousands of his people in the most cruelest manner? Japan killed about 250,000 of his soldiers and you dare to mention his name in defense of Japan? Have you no shame?!

    Yes. No domestic examples. He ruled from 246BC to 248. You didn't even come close to a decent comparison.

    Beheading in 246BC was a lot more common than in the mid 1900's. They didn't have firearms to execute back them like the Japanese did in 1945. Sick that you can even compare the two.

    Remember the gollutine, first used in 1792 to effectively kill people? They didn't have that in 246BC! But they did when Japan invaded China, but I guess they didn't give a crap.:

    Wikipedia:
    The basis for his recommendation is believed to have been his perception that it was a humane form of execution, contrasting with the methods used in pre-revolutionary, ancien régime France. In France, before the guillotine, members of the nobility were beheaded with a sword or axe

    Sword? That sounds like what the Japanese did. I guess they didn't care about being humane. Then again, they did rape their victums before killing them. Of course, to you, ever Country has done something just as bad crueling killing 300,000 people.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  17. Aug 23, 2004 #16
    Very cute. I was asking because I can't understand your degree of emotion if you are not Chinese. You did not answer the question I notice.

    I agree, but this is completely beside the point of my last post.

    You use the future tense. Good for you. If you used the present or past tense, I would not believe you. You say teach, as in school. You are wrong.

    I am sorry that you are so blind. As well, both of your dates are incorrect. You rule out all domestic examples on the basis of the one that I gave? Mao did not kill many of his own people either, did he? Yes, he does not count either, I am sure. Or the many examples between these two people. You didn't even come close to a decent point to provide an exampe for.

    Your response is sick, I do agree. You are not making sense. I provide you an example where more than your 300,000 were beheaded at a single time, and you pretend to be sick, what a joke, at the mention of the example that you disregard. Objective, aren't you.

    I fail to understand your last phrase, as it is completely unrelated to your earlier sentences.

    I have not once denied that what the Japanese did was horrible. What I did say is that the incdent was not an isolated event in the history of mankind.

    You have not commented on most of my examples. Why not? Do you accept them or reject them? To you, Japan is the ultimate in evil, and the behavior of no other country need be examined. You seem very emotional on this issue, and quite irrational. Given this unfortunate fact, there is no point in continuing this discussion and let you rant on.
     
  18. Aug 23, 2004 #17
    What kind of screwed up logic is that?

    Cacausian Americans have felt sorrow for African-American slaves. Do they have to be black slaves to show emotion?

    They do teach about American slavery in the United States. In 8th grade United States History as well as in 11th Grade Unitied States History.

     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2004
  19. Aug 23, 2004 #18
    My, you sure are touchy. Not very eloquent, but certainly touchy.

    Your response is far beyond showing emotion. You are irrational to the point of blindness.

    Sure. In detail, I bet. Tell me, based on your education at school, on what tribes did the U.S. use germ warfare. Just the examples that you learned about in school will do.

    I said that they were cruel. It was you who listed all of the specific conditions. How does harming their own people make them any less cruel?

    You are a joke. I provided a number of examples. That means more that one, in case you don't understand. You have yet to respond to my examples. In fact, this is twice now that you have ignored them. Go back and read my post. You are the one who is so focused on your slant that you forgot to read my post.

    Thank you for sharing this, for the thirtieth time. You need not do this, since I read your posts. You are the one who has not read my posts.

    Another complete misunderstanding on your part. Complete misunderstanding. Cutting off a head and taking it back to show the leader is not the easiest way to kill people. Stabbing them and leaving the bodies with their heads attached is easier. The heads were removed as an act of cruelty.

    Your use of the name Qin Shi tells me that you know nothing of that era, as this is not a valid way to phrase his name. No surprise here. Are you serious? There was no other way to kill people back then but to ensure that the heads were removed from the bodies. Yeah, right. Read the garbage that you are spouting.

    Earth to Dagonais. If you are saying that Japan was cruel, I agree with you. If you say that their act was the cruelest in history, your complete lack of understanding is showing through.

    I merely repeated the garbagge that you were spouting. If you don't like to hear it, then don't say it first.

    Look, boy. You are acting like a child. This garbage that you spout may work with other boys your age. If you would learn to think, and to read my posts, and to quit acting like a baby, then perhaps you wouldn't write this baby talk.

    Which 2? I only see your response to Qin Shi-Huang.

    You asked for a highly limited set of conditions, as though you have a lock on what accounts for cruelty. I responsed with several examples. You ignored all but one example, and pretend that you have responded to all of them.

    My but you really are a little child. Look at the baby talk that you come up with. Please don't reply any more. Go cry to your mother. She might take this baby talk from you. What a cry baby.

    If you are going to ignore my examples, then please don't reply. What about Taiwan, Vietnam, Tibet, and Mongolia?

    Are you for real?
     
  20. Aug 23, 2004 #19
    I missed this before. So, you did speak to a second of my examples. You did manage to avoid my entire argument, and instead respond by showing your complete lack of understanding, and by side-stepping the entire point of our discussion. "lead the war to resist Japan" What a joke you are.

    You say that Chiang Kai-Shek lead the war to resist Japan. From this, I understand that you do not know much about Chinese history. Your first sentence above is a complete mistake on your part. I suggest that you read something about this era of history.

    Your melodrama is exciting, but your lack of any understanding of history is excceded only by the foolish way that you phrase your argument. You really know nothing about this era in Chinese history either, do you. I notice that you completely avoided the entire point that I made anyway, about the cruelty of Chiang Kai-Shek toward the native Taiwanese. Or, do you believe that they welcomed him as a hero.

    Only a little child could come up with such a childish phrase. Get a life. Do you really think that this gibberish will be an effective way to hide the fact that you have ignored the entire meat of my point, and instead produced claims as ridiculous as they are irrelevant to the argument that we are holding?
     
  21. Aug 23, 2004 #20

    Nereid

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    Dagenais, Prometheus: the pages of history are soaked with blood and tears, and strong cases can be made against a great many nations and peoples, perhaps all.

    Wrt strong anti-Japanese feelings among some Chinese, given that the 1930s and 1940s are fairly recent, it's perhaps not surprising that some have such feelings.

    However, many others throughout the world have also suffered greatly in the same period, and more recently; some of those who've suffered seem to have been able to move on (e.g. in South Africa), others still harbour deep feelings even after more than a century (e.g. Armenians). Some say that the common thread is the willingness of the perpetrators of the horror to acknowledge their actions, and to do so sincerely.

    Do you have some constructive suggestions? Are you aware of other methods of resolution? If so, which were successful.
     
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