Kerry’s former commanders and coworkers speak out against him

[Tigers2B1]

Not that this is relevant 30 years later - it isn't IMO - but *IF* 'serving' in Vietnam is part of what 'Campaigner Kerry' is running on ------ NOW, then his war record is also an issue in this campaign. If 'Campaigner Kerry' wants to be judged on his war record, if 'Campaigner Kerry' wants to run a "War Hero" campaign, than it should be the entire war record and not only the portions
acceptable to him or his handlers. Here that record is disputed.

Linked is the swift boat veterans site and the almost unanimous criticism of John Kerry by his commanders along with over 200 former swift boat personnel. This probably will not get any 'real play' in the TV media ---- yet I wonder if would be the case if the tables were turned, and it was Bush on the receiving end of this.

http://www.swiftvets.com/

Here's the letter from the swift boat vets -

Senator Kerry

We write from our common heritage as veterans of duty aboard Swift Boats in the Vietnam War. Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter.

It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.

We believe you continue this conduct today, albeit by changing from an anti-war to a "war hero" status. You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career. In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have
deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.

Your conduct is such as to raise substantive concerns as to your honesty and your ability to serve, as you currently seek, as Commander-in-Chief of the military services.

It is vital that the American public have as much information as possible about candidates for President of the United States. In various ways, you have rightly called upon President Bush to be fully accountable and to provide full disclosure. In the same spirit, now that you are the presumptive nominee of your Party, we believe it is incumbent upon you to make your total military record open to the American people.

Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.

Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.

Respectfully

Signed by over 200 swift boat veterans – (signatories’ names available at the linked site)

 

[Adam]

Note that they don't actually say anything bad about him, they merely circle around and drop hints which can't be classed as libel, with the intent of letting readers imagine the worst.

 

[Adam]

Good grief. I had a look around that website's forums. I've never seen a bigger collection of flag-waving hillbilly idiots.

 

[Adam]

This is the sort of stuff those people say:

For good and ill, the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue. On the one hand, right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of the actions while on the other hand, political glee will take control and fashion this minor event into some modern day My Lai massacre.

I heard some Arabs and Muslims are asking for an apology. I humbly offer my comments here:

I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims
(Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.

I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.

I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships. I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.

I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and highjacked the Palestinian "cause".

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.

I am sorry that our own left wing elite, our media, and our own brainwashed (from elements of our society like radical professors, CNN and the NY & LA TIMES) masses do not understand any of this.

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise."

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other noncombatant civilians are legitimate targets.

I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.

I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site".

I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn't apologize for flights 77, 93, 96 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl, etc...etc!

I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa.

America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do. We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners.

Sure, it was wrong. Sure, it dramatically hurts our cause. But until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated? Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans.

If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait. You have a better chance of finding those 72 virgins.


God Bless America

As you can see, they are morons.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Are you talking about the swift boat vets? Or are you talking about somebody - anybody posting on one of the boards located at the site?

 

[Janitor]

Just out of curiosity-

Adam, are you sorry that the Muslim bombers are brainwashed into believing they will receive 72 virgins in Paradise?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I didn't spot the actual letter. Where is it?

I am struck by two things: First, the general feeling is that Kerry is unfit to be commander and chief. Next, they resent Kerry for his actions after he returned from the war.

I don't know about the first objection. Even if true, we already know about Bush. No doubt I would really like another option.

I have known many people who fought in Vietnam. From everything that I have been told by those involved, the horrors did happen. These guys at Swift boat would have us believe otherwise. The horrors happened because that's what happens in wars. When are people going to get it!

A free fire zone was an area in which you shoot anything that moves: Women, children, little old ladies... I have heard first hand accounts by those who were there; in fact nearly every one of them that fought as foot soldiers. It's not like Kerry stood alone with these claims.

In some units at least, when you killed a Vietnamese soldier you cut off his ear and kept it on a string.

There is no such thing as civilized killing.

 

[studentx]

I have a feeling once Kerry is president, its going to be the other way around here on these forums. People like Adam and Nommos will be defending the actions of the american government.

 

[Tigers2B1]

After clicking past the main page look to the menu at the left. Click on “Media” and this list of options will appear at the next screen – Among that group is ‘Letter to Kerry’ – click. The menu explains itself --

Press Releases
Media Contact - media@swiftvets.com

· SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH FORMS ORGANIZATION Goals are to restore honor of Vietnam vets; Rebut John Kerry’s unanswered lies; Bring the truth about Kerry’s service to the public

· Letter to John Kerry
· List of Signers
· Military Records Release Form (PDF Format)
· SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH CALL ON JOHN KERRY TO STOP UNAUTHORIZED USE OF PHOTO: Kerry Fraudulently Using Picture of Swift Boat Vets who Condemn him in National Advertising
Audio/Video Of Press Conference
· Audio of Press Conference
· Video of Press Conference Part 1
· Video of Press Conference Part 2
Press Conference Remarks
· Richard Brant
· Steve Gardner
· Roy Hoffman
· Charlie Plumly
· Joe Ponder
· Richard O'Meara
· David Wallace
· Bernard Wolff

 

[Njorl]

That site has been discredited. The people on that site were not his commanders. Most never served with Kerry. Unlike Bush, Kerry has released his records. His commanders all universally praise him. It is amatter of public record. The worst thing they say is that they are disappointed he was leaving the navy. The vast majority of those who served with him respect him greatly - even those who dislike him.

Njorl

 

[Tigers2B1]

...A free fire zone was an area in which you shoot anything that moves: Women, children, little old ladies... I have heard first hand accounts by those who were there; in fact nearly every one of them that fought as foot soldiers. It's not like Kerry stood alone with these claims.

In some units at least, when you killed a Vietnamese soldier you cut off his ear and kept it on a string.

There is no such thing as civilized killing.

Than Kerry committed war crimes --- and Bush didn't?? I'm not sure what your point is -

 

[Njorl]

Here are Kerry's military records in the entirety:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/military_records.html

If you don't trust his site, you can send a FoIA to the DoD to get you own copies.

You can not do that to get all of George Bush's records, because he does not want you to see them.

Njorl

 

[Tigers2B1]

That site has been discredited. The people on that site were not his commanders...

Njorl

You have any reputable source that supports that claim? A link and a related quote will do for starters --

 

[Njorl]

That's not how it works. You find one of Kerry's commanders on that list, and I'll shoot it down.

Njorl

 

[Njorl]

Of those on the list, only Hoffman, Lonsdale, Plumly, Elliot and Hibbard were in Kerry's chain of command.

Hoffman, Lonsdale and Plumly probably would not have recognized Kerry on sight. They never evaluated him. There is no evidence that they knew of his existence before he started his anti-war activities.

Hibbard's evaluation was essentially that he did not see enough of Kerry to evaluate him.

Elliot gave Kerry an incredible evaluation. Check out page 22 of this link:
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Fitness_Reports.pdf

None of these men had anything bad to say about him until they knew his politics.

Njorl

 

[Adam]

Adam, are you sorry that the Muslim bombers are brainwashed into believing they will receive 72 virgins in Paradise?

I'm sorry if you believe all that rubbish. Well, no I'm not, but you should be.

 

[Dissident Dan]

How about a group with some real credentials and grasp of the issues making a statement:
Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46538-2004Jun16.html

The Bush administration does not understand the world and remains unable to handle "in either style or substance" the responsibilities of global leadership, a group of 27 retired diplomats and military commanders charged yesterday.
....
Among the retired officials signing the statement were Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President Ronald Reagan and U.S. ambassador to the Court of St. James's under President Bill Clinton, and Marine Gen. Joseph P. Hoar, named by President George H.W. Bush to lead U.S. forces in the Middle East.

The participants also include a pair of former ambassadors to the Soviet Union, two former ambassadors to Israel, two former ambassadors to Pakistan and a former director of the CIA.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Here it is ---- 19 of the 23 officers who worked with you and over 200 swift boat colleagues say you're not fit due to perform the duties of Commander in Chief to character issues speaks for itself ---

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=3838

...19 of 23 Officers Who Served with Kerry Sign Open Letter
Navy Vets: Kerry Unfit to Serve...

…The letter also calls on Kerry to let the Navy publicly release all of his records. Kerry campaign spokesman Michael Meehan pointed out that most of Kerry's military records, though not all his military medical records, are available on his website, JohnKerry.com. …

In addition, they want Kerry to grant third parties access to his records, as requested in the letter, rather than having the Kerry people go through and post them without oversight. This was as of May 7th –

So ----- if Kerry and his handlers want Campainger Kerry to be judged on his 'War record,' then these allegations become germane. Kerry doesn't get to call himself a War Hero, talk about his medals, and then catch a free ride out of Dodge – especially when allegations such as these come from those who were there.

 

[Tigers2B1]

If such a large group of 'War Hero' Kerry's peers and superiors in Vietnam are against him now, their stories should be, at a minimum, given a voice. Here are the signatories as of today (7-6-04)

Roy Alexander
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.
Dan V. Armstrong, BM2
Ray Lewis Ballew
Alexander Bass
George “M.” Bates
Richard Beers
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN
Edward J. “Lord Mort” Bergin, Capt., USNR Ret.
Henry “Buddy” Berman, QM2
Barry Bogart, EN2
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN Ret.
M.T. Boone
David Borden
Vern Boyd
David M. Bradley, LCdr.
Robert “Friar Tuck” Brant ,Cdr. USN (Ret.)
Kenneth Briggs
Carlyle J. Brown , EN2
Kenneth “Buck” Buckholz, GMM3
Michael C. Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR
Billy Carwile, EN3
Jack Chenoweth
William Colgan, RD3
Bill Collins
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR
James M. Corrigan, QM3
Terry Cosstello
John H. Davis, Lt.
William K. Daybert, Cdr.
James Deal
John Dooley, Cdr., USN, Ret.
Dale Duffield , BM1, USN, Ret.
Robert G. Elder, Lt.
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR, Ret.
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN, Ret.
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR, Ret.
William E. Franke, LT.jg
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR, Ret.
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3
Ray Fuller, GMG3
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN, Ret.
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR, Ret.
Steve Gardner
Bill Garlow
Les Garrett
Tony Gisclair
Robert Gnau, QM2
Donald Goldberg
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN, Ret.
Kenneth Golden
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN
John C. Graves
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN Ret.
Dennis L. Green, GMG
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR, Ret.
F.L. Skip “Mustang Sally”
Gunther, Lt. USN
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR, Ret.
Don C. Hammer, Lt.
Rock Harmon
Keith C. Harris, RD2
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN
Gene Hart, RD3
Bob Hastings
Curt Hatler
John Hecker , RD3
Chuck Herman, RD3
Raul Herrera
Tom Herritage
Grant (Skip) Hibbard
Rocky Hildreth
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN, Ret.
William P. Holden, Capt., USN Ret.
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR
Robert Hooke, Lt.
Andy Horne
John Howell
Warren Hudson
Charles W. Hunt, EN3
Robert Hunt
Gail E. “Ike” Ikerd, Cdr. Ret.
John Paul Jones, QM3
Tom Jones
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN Ret.
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN, Ret.
Thomas H. Klemash
Kenneth Knipple, EN1
Robert Koger, QM2
Mike Kovanen, RD3
Bob Kreyer, GMG2
Jack K. Lane, GMG3
William T. Langham
William Lannom
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN Ret.
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN, Ret.
Jim Madden, RD3
William S. Mann, Jr., LT.jg
Jim Marohn, GMG3
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR
Tom Mason, Lt.
Donald Matras, EN2 Ret.
Thomas Mason, Lt.
Louis Masterson
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR
Kenneth B. McGhee
James McNeal, ENC
Larry Meyer
Jack Merkley, Lt.
James M. Miller
Martin Miller, ENC, Ret.
Marc Milligan, GMG2
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3
Bub Morgan, LT.jg
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.
Tom Morrill, EN3
Wayne H. Moser
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.
Frank Mueller
Marc Mulligan, GMG2
Ed Mundy
Richard Olsen, Lt.
John O’Neill
Albert Owens
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR, Ret.
Robert Phalen, GMG2
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN Ret.
Charles Plumley
Chuck Rabel
Bill Rogers , Lt.
Jennings Rogerson II, Capt. USMC Ret.
Patrick Sage GMG3
Gary W. Sallee, BM2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3
Robert “Bob” Sattergood
Jim Schneider, EN2
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN, Ret.
Jack Shamley
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN, Ret.
Paul Shepherd, QM2
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg
William Shumadine
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2
Darryl Skuce, GMG2
John J. Skura
Gerald H. Smith
Roy Smith
B. Tony Snesko BM2
Mike Solhaug
Jack Spratt, LCDR
Stirlin Harris, BM2
Fred E. Stith, USN, (Ret.)
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN Ret.
James Steffes
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN Ret.
Weymouth Symmes
W.P. (Sonny) Taylor
James P. Thomas
Eldon Thompson, LT.jg
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC
Gary E. Townsend
William F. Trainer
Michael Turley, BM2
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, LT. jg
David Wallace
Greg Ward, EN2
Larry J. “Waz” Wasikowski,
Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve
Pete Webster
Robert T. Wedge, Jr., QM1, USN Ret.
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3
George H. White, II
R. Shelton White, Lt.
Gary K. Whittington, EN3
James D. Wiggins
Dennis D. Willess, EN3
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.
Barnard Wolff
Thomas W. Wright , Cdr., USN Ret.
John Wyatt, GMG
John Yeoman, Lt.
Ex Officio:
Verne DeWitt
David P. Marion , CPT Infantry, US Army
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3
Cordelia Ogrinz, in memory of her brother Alexander J. Ogrinz, III, Lt.
Rex Rectanus, VADM, USN, Ret.
Skip Ridley
Emmett Tidd
James M. Zumwalt in memory of Elmo Zumwalt, Sr. and Elmo Zumwalt, Jr, his father and brother

 

[Njorl]

Here it is ---- 19 of the 23 officers who worked with you and over 200 swift boat colleagues say you're not fit due to perform the duties of Commander in Chief to character issues speaks for itself ---

First, it is laughable to say that Kerry only served with 23 other officers.

None of them had anything bad to say about Kerry before he started protesting the war. They just don't like him because he protested the war, and, more importantly, because he aired the dirty laundry of the US military.

None of these people can make any factual claims that impugn John Kerry's character. They just believe that no one who opposed the Vietnam war is fit to be president. Their condemnation of Kerry after the fact says more about them than it does about Kerry.

They are defensive about the US loss in Vietnam. They can not blame the military, or a conservative president, so they must blame someone else. They blame protestors, and John Kerry was one of the most visible. It is the same irrational rantings that we see now in Iraq. Conservatives can do no wrong. Everything going wrong in Iraq is because of bad press.

A list of 200 bitter rationalizing men does not make John Kerry unfit for the presidency.

Njorl

 

[Njorl]

There is only one man named on that list, "Steve Gardner", who ever served with Kerry in any combat situation. Other crewmates contradicted Gardners criticisms.

Njorl

 

[Njorl]

Just a little bit about John O'neill, the guy who organized this character assassination.

Upon returnning from Vietnam, he was hired by Watergate felon Charles Colson to "get Kerry" at Richard Nixon's behest. He was rewarded with a supreme court clerkship to William Rhenquist.

He claims to have no political axe to grind, but that is not so. He has done fundraising for the GOP. His law firm, which represents oil companies almost exclusively, is full of Bush's cronies.

The other conspirator behind this, Merry Spaeth, is a well known Texas GOP activist.

This is a political hatchet job using embittered Vietnam Vets who didn't even know Kerry.

Njorl

 

[Stanley_Smith]

Check this out:

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3539

 

[Njorl]

Check this out:

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3539

Well, 30 year old second hand stories from an ultra right-wing blog couldn't be wrong now could they? Surely they're more accurate than contemporary assessments by his commanders.

Face it. The democrats have a genuine military and moral hero. The republicans have a man who demanded non-combat assignment, then deserted anyway. I think one reason Kerry is so hated is that he punctures the fantasies that republicans have a monopoly on patriotism and courage.

Njorl

 

[Stanley_Smith]

Well, 30 year old second hand stories from an ultra right-wing blog couldn't be wrong now could they? Surely they're more accurate than contemporary assessments by his commanders.

ultra right-wing ? How so ? what made him ultra right-wing ? Huh...

Face it. The democrats have a genuine military and moral hero. The republicans have a man who demanded non-combat assignment, then deserted anyway. I think one reason Kerry is so hated is that he punctures the fantasies that republicans have a monopoly on patriotism and courage.

Njorl

"genuine military and moral hero"... I don't know how genuine and heroic... but I know that him and Jane Fonda shared the same goal after he got back form Vietnam: see the picture...

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry.asp

"Joining the antiwar movement was possibly the worst thing he could have done to the soldiers still in the field," he said. "He basically gave aid and comfort to the enemy."

 

[Stanley_Smith]

Well, 30 year old second hand stories from an ultra right-wing blog couldn't be wrong now could they? Surely they're more accurate than contemporary assessments by his commanders.


Face it. The democrats have a genuine military and moral hero. The republicans have a man who demanded non-combat assignment, then deserted anyway. I think one reason Kerry is so hated is that he punctures the fantasies that republicans have a monopoly on patriotism and courage.

Njorl

ultra right-wing ? How so ? what made him ultra right-wing ? Huh...

"genuine military and moral hero"... I don't know how genuine and heroic... but I know that him and Jane Fonda shared the same goal after he got back form Vietnam: see the picture...

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry.asp

"Joining the antiwar movement was possibly the worst thing he could have done to the soldiers still in the field," he said. "He basically gave aid and comfort to the enemy."

 

[loseyourname]

What enemy? Perhaps my history knowledge is simply lacking, but I don't recall North Vietnam ever attacking the US or its property. Call me insane, but I think the war just might have been political, for the aim it was stated to be for: the containment of communism. Funny that even though the communist regime remained in place - that is, the US lost the war - communism did not completely overtake Southeast Asia as the fearmonger politicians seemed convinced it would.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Than Kerry committed war crimes --- and Bush didn't?? I'm not sure what your point is -

No, Kerry put his butt on the line to make right a terrible wrong.

Great work Njorl!

 

[kat]

Does anyone know of any other soldier who was released from duty in vietnam for 3 purple hearts? and can anyone point me towards the regulation that allows release with 3 purple hearts?

 

[Adam]

Does anyone know a regulation that allows the kids of rich people to goof off in the reserves (and go AWL) while others fight for the decisions of a few wealthy people with political influence?

 

[Stanley_Smith]

What enemy? Perhaps my history knowledge is simply lacking, but I don't recall North Vietnam ever attacking the US or its property. Call me insane, but I think the war just might have been political, for the aim it was stated to be for: the containment of communism. Funny that even though the communist regime remained in place - that is, the US lost the war - communism did not completely overtake Southeast Asia as the fearmonger politicians seemed convinced it would.

Yeah, your history is missing a piece of information. During the Korean War, the North Korean's army didn't attack the US or its property. But the US and its allies still involved in that war. Without the US and the UN intervention, for sure South Korea can't not be one of the richest country in the world now and look at North Korea... If the US didn't pull out of Vietnam like they did, South Vietnam could be like South Korea right now, or even better; and so you know, Saigon, the capital of South Vietnam used to be called "the pearl of the Far East"...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We lost in Vietnam because the risk required to win was too great - a major conflict with the USSR and/or China; WWIII. This is why the war was lost before it began. Note also that Korea never has been resolved. How many countries do you think we should occupy?

You also forget the great irony of Vietnam: We were willing to destroy the village in order to save it. When the people you protect turn against you, who are you really protecting?

 

[Njorl]

Does anyone know of any other soldier who was released from duty in vietnam for 3 purple hearts? and can anyone point me towards the regulation that allows release with 3 purple hearts?

There is no such regulation, nor did John Kerry get released from duty for his 3 purple hearts.

Navy instruction 1300.39 allows a navy officer to request reassignment if he is wounded in combat twice requiring hospitalization or three times not requiring hospitalization in a single tour of duty. The request does not have to be granted. Kerry was re-assigned to the states.

Much has been made that John Kerry is the only one known to have used this. It is not a big deal. It does not apply to enlisted men, as far as I can tell (every citation of it uses "officer"). It is inconceivable that a careerist would use it.

Now, how many non-careerist Navy officers have been wounded in combat 3 times in a single tour since the regulation was in place?

Njorl

 

[Tigers2B1]

There is only one man named on that list, "Steve Gardner", who ever served with Kerry in any combat situation. Other crewmates contradicted Gardners criticisms.

Njorl

First could you provide a source for THAT assertion - that during Kerry's tenure in Vietnam the only person on the list that Kerry "served" (I assume that also includes receiving and giving orders) with was "Steve Gardner." And second - the unsupported assertion made by you that these opinions, the opinions of over 200 Swift Boat Vets, are baseless, is just that --- unsupported. I see that you're careful not to say that these Swift Boat Vets have nothing relevant to say --- which IS the issue you know. But if you’re going to make such a fantastic claim - a claim that only one person out of over 200 signatories has anything relevant to say – I’m sure you wouldn’t mind someone asking for links and related quotes to the source(s) you used as a base for that conclusion-- Therefore - I'll be that someone.

 

[Tigers2B1]

http://www.swiftvets.com/PressRelease051704.htm

Kerry Fraudulently Using Picture of Swift Boat Vets who Condemn him in National Advertising

(May 17-Alexandria, VA) Today, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group of more than 220 Swift Boat veterans from the unit in which John Kerry served, call on Kerry to stop the unauthorized use of their images in national campaign advertising.

For example, the photo in Kerry’s national campaign ads contains 20 officers, including Kerry, 11 of whom signed a letter condemning Kerry yet their image is being widely used in his own campaign. It was taken on the island of An Thoi on January 22, 1969. These officers together with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth call upon him to cease the unauthorized use of their photo by his campaign. They are jointly submitting the attached letter to John Kerry. (Photo, letter to Kerry, link to authorized use of the photo and earlier letter to Kerry below.)

Of the remaining eight officers in the photo: two are deceased and four do not wish to be involved in any manner; only two of the 20 are believed to support Kerry.

Go to the linked site (above) to view the picture used by the Kerry Campaign – Scroll to the bottom of that linked page to view the picture showing Kerry and those in the original picture that have actually supported Kerry - Note the dramatic reduction from about 20 Swift Boat veterans to two --