KWh to KVArh conversion

  • Thread starter Heafield
  • Start date
  • #1
2
0

Main Question or Discussion Point

H Everyone,

I have a question possibly someone can help with.

I provide basic remote GSM monitoring for a client of mine which we count pulses from an energy meter to count KWh's. I am able to provide basic energy costs based on the tariffs provided by the utility company. To provide a more accurate cost of energy I need to be able to work out the KVArh.

Here are the known inputs and outputs,

3 phase
380 volts
measured KWh from energy meter pulsed outputs.

Question: is it possible to work out the KVArh from the KWh readings?

your assistance would be greatly appreciated.

thanks.
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
1,371
346
Based on the info you have provided I would say no. You will need at least one more piece of data - depending on how accurate you want the result. Since you are using pulse data I am assuming your data is very limited.
 
  • #3
2
0
Based on the info you have provided I would say no. You will need at least one more piece of data - depending on how accurate you want the result. Since you are using pulse data I am assuming your data is very limited.
Hi Windadct, is there a key input that would assist me in extrapolating KVArh from KWh that I am missing?

Thanks
 
  • #4
1,371
346
Not to joke but KVARH - if you have amps for example, you could do the calculation ASSUMING constant Voltage - i.e. less accurate. KVWH meters look and behave exactly the same as KVARH - one measures REAL power = Watts = Volts*Amps REAL, one measures REACTIVE POWER = VAR ( Volts * Amps Reactive) .. the REAL issue confuses a lot of people.
There are relatively low cost methods to measure the key parameters - but if the measurement is not there, you can not figure this out based on the data you listed above. - In short a simple pulse stream will not get the data you need.
 
  • #5
743
142
Hi Windadct, is there a key input that would assist me in extrapolating KVArh from KWh that I am missing?

Thanks
A number of data could be used depending. Power factor would be useful if it remained more or less constant (or you were able to sample it as well.). What he's using the electricity for could also provide a crude estimate. Power company charges might help as well. (They sometimes charge extra for reactive power.)
 
  • #6
jim hardy
Science Advisor
Gold Member
2019 Award
Dearly Missed
9,839
4,875
Here are the known inputs and outputs,

3 phase
380 volts
measured KWh from energy meter pulsed outputs.
known inputs?
3 phase - what do you mean by that ? Do you have three measurements of phase current ?
380 volts -
what do you mean by that ? Do you have three measurements of phase voltage ?


If all you have is pulses from KWH meters
then
so far as your computer knows KVARs are not even measured.

Inquire of your client if he has KVAR meters that you could monitor. Sometimes they're called Q-meters.
 
Last edited:
  • #7
If all you're getting info from are KWh meters then that's what you've got. If you want KVAh, of any sort, I would think you'd need to get something from a meter that's measuring KVAR's...if you had that, then you could derive KVA pretty easily.

NOTE: I'm no expert on metering, this is just from what I catch around the workplace...
 
  • #8
anorlunda
Staff Emeritus
Insights Author
8,589
5,477
Hi Windadct, is there a key input that would assist me in extrapolating KVArh from KWh that I am missing?
I think you are suffering from a misconception. Watts and VARs are orthogonal in the same way that an X axis and Y axis are orthogonal, or latitude and longitude are orthogonal. Orthogonality means that one can not infer one from the other, or "extrapolate" on from the other.
 
  • #9
743
142
I think you are suffering from a misconception. Watts and VARs are orthogonal in the same way that an X axis and Y axis are orthogonal, or latitude and longitude are orthogonal. Orthogonality means that one can not infer one from the other, or "extrapolate" on from the other.
While you are right from an engineering perspective, this seems more of an accounting issue.

The real question is, how accurate does this need to be. Since it's only sampled, I'm assuming not that much.
 
  • #10
anorlunda
Staff Emeritus
Insights Author
8,589
5,477
To measure, there are two approaches.

  1. Measure instantaneous V and I, sampling period 1 ms or less. VA is RMS(V)*RMS(I). W= RMS(V(t)*I(t)), VAR= SQRT(VA^2-W^2), where RMS() is root-mean-square of an entire cycle's values. Accumulate the values over time to get kWh and kVARh. If your measurements are going into a microprocessor, the math is not difficult.

  2. Use a kWh meter plus a separate kVARh meter. Pulsed or continuous.
 
  • #11
jim hardy
Science Advisor
Gold Member
2019 Award
Dearly Missed
9,839
4,875
Since it's only sampled, I'm assuming not that much.
KWH they'll want to great precision because that's revenue.
KVARh they'd probably accept with less precision because it's an adjustment, but significantly as Anorlunda pointed out KVAR will need to be integrated .
Just to average sampled instantaneous power factor readings would be a mistake of arithmetic

KWH meters perform a real time integration to report energy from a power measurement.
I'm accustomed to the old electromechanical type with a rotating disk. They are remarkably accurate especially considering how long ago they were invented, late 1800's. Ours gave a small number of contact closures per turn of the disk (two or four or six i forget ).
Each turn of the disk represents so many watt-hours and that is indicated on the meter face by Kh . So one adds so many kwh to his running total upon receipt of a pulse.


Kh.JPG


I suppose if you had a measure of instantaneous power factor or instantaneous KVARS you could integrate them in software.

Page 169 of this PDF begins a detailed explanation of the disk KWH meter.
ftp://ftpdoe.water.ca.gov/MandEprojects/Electrical/desarno/public/EEI%20Hanbook/Handbook.pdf


old jim
 
Last edited:
  • #12
dlgoff
Science Advisor
Gold Member
3,824
1,759
You could purchase a Watt/Var transducer for real time measurements and integrate as needed. Here's one from Omega.

OM11_l.jpg
 
  • Like
Likes jim hardy
  • #13
1,371
346
In your original statement you gave the Knowns (3 ph and V) and the Output ( pulses) -- but reading this again I have to ask.... Is the utility billing for VARs and how are they measuring them? If the cost of the energy is including some VAR measurement - then there should be a meter for them, if oyu have acces to the Pule outout of the utilities WH Meter - then you need access to their VAR Meter.
If the customer has installed his own meter to be able to cross check the Utility - and he only has a WH meter - then you can not get a VAR number accurate enough for revenue. If the Customer's self-installed WH meter is a socket type it can be replaced directly with a higher function meter. EI 1262.

Still based on the data in your original post - you can not figure out the VARs without adding metering or finding a new data point.
 
  • Like
Likes dlgoff
  • #14
dlgoff
Science Advisor
Gold Member
3,824
1,759
If the cost of the energy is including some VAR measurement ...you need access to their VAR Meter.
Absolutely. For billing, a transducer isn't acceptable.
 

Related Threads on KWh to KVArh conversion

Replies
6
Views
4K
  • Last Post
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
3
Views
8K
  • Last Post
Replies
20
Views
41K
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
1
Views
5K
  • Last Post
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
3
Views
45K
Top