Lab Partners-is it always like this, or is it just me?

[HeLiXe]

Lab Partners--is it always like this, or is it just me?

This is something that has been in the back of my mind which is coming to the forefront as the semester goes on, and that is my experience in labs with lab partners--and I wonder if I am the source of the problem. I notice that in general students like to rush through the labs with very minimum attention to detail as they like to leave class early. But I wonder if I am overdoing things. I will give a few examples for clarification.

In chemistry lab I have come into conflict with my lab partners about procedures and measurements. For example we had a stoichiometry lab and my partner got very angry that I checked her measurements as we were going through the lab. I was not checking to underestimate her in any way, but I actually think it is normal for both partners to check and agree on the measurements for the experiment. I was surprised that this upset her. I explained my point of view and she later understood. In another lab we were instructed to measure the solution to 3.3 mL--I was working with another partner. I noticed that she kept measuring at 3.0. I reminded her that the measurement was supposed to be 3.3, and she was upset that I was being so specific. Then were were supposed to calculate percentage error between measuring 9mL in a 25mL graduated cylinder versus a 10mL graduated cylinder and instead of reporting our actual error percentage, she filled the 10mL beaker to the 9mL mark to decrease the percentage of error. Then in physics class we were supposed to level the air track and my partners propped up the track with a board to make it level. I told them this may make our numbers inaccurate and we should level the track by adjusting the legs, and one guy really got annoyed with me. They all decided to just prop it up with the board because it was level that way, and our results were very inaccurate.

I am not rude or condescending with the aforementioned, I just let them know in a matter of fact way. I know that people do not like to be corrected in general, but shouldn't accuracy be appreciated in lab? I have had partners correct me for things I would have potentially done wrong and I was very happy they did. Do you double check measurements with your lab partners? I am still doing lower level classes so I'm not sure if this sort of thing will change as accuracy begins to matter more. I have stayed in lab sometimes a little later than all of the others because I had to redo certain experiments which were executed incorrectly, but my partners were in such a rush they did not wish to correct it. The professors do not lower your marks for inaccuracy as long as you report your source of error and deviation from procedure. Am I overdoing it by caring about accuracy in this scenario?

Sorry if this is lengthy!

 

[Angry Citizen]

I've had similar experiences with lab partners. I always take the time to do it right and understand what's going on. But most importantly, I have fun in lab. I think this confuses a lot of my lab partners, because they look at labs as a chore.

As for 'correcting' lab partners, I haven't had any issue with it. Usually it's a little painful at first because I usually have a good intuition as to what needs to be done, and people are skeptical at first. Usually they come around to seeing the way I see towards the middle of the semester.

 

[HeLiXe]

Thanks Angry Citizen. I also have fun in lab :)

As for 'correcting' lab partners, I haven't had any issue with it. Usually it's a little painful at first because I usually have a good intuition as to what needs to be done, and people are skeptical at first. Usually they come around to seeing the way I see towards the middle of the semester.

Maybe they will come around :). I have noticed that more people are coming to me for help when they are stuck, but I have not worked with them before.

 

[I like Serena]

Hi again HeLiXe!

Obviously working carefully and accurately is at the core of doing science!

And as sources of irritation and frustration go, working with someone who is sloppy and uncareful is a major source of it!
Much more so than working with someone you know will be careful and who you can rely on, not even feeling the need to check their work, although double checking is also elemental in doing science.

That said, it is also annoying to be criticized, and for someone not trusting you to do your work properly.
(Ever hear someone say: "if you know it all so well, why don't you do everything yourself!").
That sort of emotions are in the way of the work and that's not what you want.

To deal with it takes major social and communicative skills.
There are entire educations for exactly that!
It's what any manager needs to learn.

One of the elemental skills is being nice to your partner, thank him/her, and compliment on stuff (s)he's doing right.
I think you already know that (seeing other posts from you)!

 

[streeters]

It's always like this.

 

[HeLiXe]

It's always like this.

Thanks streeters >_<

Hi again HeLiXe!

Hii

Obviously working carefully and accurately is at the core of doing science!

And as sources of irritation and frustration go, working with someone who is sloppy and uncareful is a major source of it!
Much more so than working with someone you know will be careful and who you can rely on, not even feeling the need to check their work, although double checking is also elemental in doing science.

That said, it is also annoying to be criticized, and for someone not trusting you to do your work properly.
(Ever hear someone say: "if you know it all so well, why don't you do everything yourself!").
That sort of emotions are in the way of the work and that's not what you want.

I have heard this said-- fortunately not to me. You are right it is annoying to be criticised. I considered if I am coming across that way, and I do not think I am being critical. The way I see it we (persons in my classes) are all developing fundamental skills and are not remotely at the level of mastery. Oddly in high school it was the norm to check the things that matter and make sure everything is accurate, so I don't understand why it is seen as offensive in college. I see it as part of the science--nothing personal. As you said it is elemental. It does not bother me if someone makes an error (I once broke a graduated cylinder lol). I just want our lab to have accurate results, and I value learning to do things correctly.

To deal with it takes major social and communicative skills.
There are entire educations for exactly that!
It's what any manager needs to learn.

One of the elemental skills is being nice to your partner, thank him/her, and compliment on stuff (s)he's doing right.
I think you already know that (seeing other posts from you)!

You are too kind :D Indeed I thank my lab partners and compliment them.

Thank you for your comments. I will keep these things you said in mind during my next lab lol. It is disturbing to upset someone over these things.

 

[JNBirDy]

For example we had a stoichiometry lab and my partner got very angry that I checked her measurements as we were going through the lab.

I think you might be going a little too far with this. I've had lab partners that have consistently asked me "You measured 10 ml, right?" and so forth, but if they had actually taken my test tubes and physically measured the 10ml instead of having a little faith in me I would have been very offended. Regardless of your intentions, it comes off as very rude (to me at least).

 

[HeLiXe]

I think you might be going a little too far with this. I've had lab partners that have consistently asked me "You measured 10 ml, right?" and so forth, but if they had actually taken my test tubes and physically measured the 10ml instead of having a little faith in me I would have been very offended. Regardless of your intentions, it comes off as very rude (to me at least).

Thanks JNBirDy. Your response is insightful. I can see how it would be annoying if you feel that your partner has lack of faith in you by looking at the test tubes. I never considered someone checking my measurements as a lack of faith in me, so I was insensitive to this. Thank you! In these scenarios I actually asked my partner before I checked the measurement or checked the cylinder if it was on the table (while she was doing something else) before mixing it in the solution. I never took it from her and measured it...I think taking it from her instead of just asking would be a bit rude.

 

[Jack21222]

Why would you be offended, JNB? Most labs don't ask for 10 mL to one significant figure. There is often some subjectivity in the last digit of a measurement. When I took chemistry, my lab partner and I would almost always check each other's measurements. Often, it would be just "yep, I agree." Other times, it would be "10.2? That looks more like 10.4 to me." After a small debate, we'd usually agree to meet in the middle.

That's nothing to get offended about.

 

[aegrisomnia]

I'd not get offended, but especially for introductory labs, it's probably a little OCD to worry about doing everything exactly right. Lots of science/engineering types can be perfectionists... but it probably wouldn't hurt to work at gauging the seriousness of the situation and adjusting your level of interest to an appropriate level.

That being said, it never gets any better. A bunch of really smart colleagues in my lab tend to sort of "wing it" when it comes to "setting up" and getting everything together. I try to voice my concern when I feel it's important... but otherwise, I find that going with the flow tends to work out about as well in the end.

 

[HeLiXe]

I think I see it your way Jack.

Just wanted to clarify that for the 3.3 mL scenario above we were using the 10ml grad cylinder, which as you know is certain to the tenth.

 

[HeLiXe]

I'd not get offended, but especially for introductory labs, it's probably a little OCD to worry about doing everything exactly right. Lots of science/engineering types can be perfectionists... but it probably wouldn't hurt to work at gauging the seriousness of the situation and adjusting your level of interest to an appropriate level.

That being said, it never gets any better. A bunch of really smart colleagues in my lab tend to sort of "wing it" when it comes to "setting up" and getting everything together. I try to voice my concern when I feel it's important... but otherwise, I find that going with the flow tends to work out about as well in the end.

Thanks so much aegrisomnia :) If the accuracy of the measurement is not important I do not worry about it. For example we had a halogens lab and the 1ml measurements were taken using the 20 drop method. I didn't even think to ask my partner if she put 20 drops in the tube, but I think the measurements for stoichiometry and determining the density of a solid were important. In any event you are right about being OCD and gauging the seriousness of the situation. :)

 

[micromass]

You're just being accurate, and I think that's a very good thing. Checking your partners result is necessary, in my opinion. Whenever I worked it groups with people, I would always check other people's result, I'd point out the mistake and let them correct it. Fine, some people were definitely annoyed with me, but I don't really care.

Keep that accuracy, HeLiXe, you'll benifit a lot from that attitude!

 

[Nabeshin]

Just to add some perspective, it seems like these are mostly introductory labs, no? In that case, most of the students probably are not too engaged in the experiments (as they are somewhat silly, like the carts on the air track you mention). That's why most people just want to get in and get out and move on to more important work.

In an upper division lab course, the kind of rigor you have is extremely useful, and indeed almost necessary. So while you might be wading through a sea of unmotivated fellow undergraduates, I echo micromass' advice: keep it up.

 

[JNBirDy]

Thanks JNBirDy. Your response is insightful. I can see how it would be annoying if you feel that your partner has lack of faith in you by looking at the test tubes. I never considered someone checking my measurements as a lack of faith in me, so I was insensitive to this. Thank you! In these scenarios I actually asked my partner before I checked the measurement or checked the cylinder if it was on the table (while she was doing something else) before mixing it in the solution. I never took it from her and measured it...I think taking it from her instead of just asking would be a bit rude.

Part of the reason that I would get offend while others might not is that I haven't had a single lab partner who wasn't a friend of mine. To think that a friend had little faith in my ability would be quite disheartening, however, if it was a stranger who I had met just that day, I would understand that they might not know how competent I am and that they are just being careful.

Also, I've only finished my freshman year at university and all of my labs so far have been introductory-level and quite basic. Meaning that although accuracy was important, being a little bit inaccurate really didn't affect the results or my mark.

That being said, I think that you should still be extremely careful during your labs and try to be as accurate as possible. If to be as accurate as possible you need to check your lab partners measurement and results, then so be it.

 

[Jack21222]

Part of the reason that I would get offend while others might not is that I haven't had a single lab partner who wasn't a friend of mine. To think that a friend had little faith in my ability would be quite disheartening, however, if it was a stranger who I had met just that day, I would understand that they might not know how competent I am and that they are just being careful.

Also, I've only finished my freshman year at university and all of my labs so far have been introductory-level and quite basic. Meaning that although accuracy was important, being a little bit inaccurate really didn't affect the results or my mark.

That being said, I think that you should still be extremely careful during your labs and try to be as accurate as possible. If to be as accurate as possible you need to check your lab partners measurement and results, then so be it.

I think it'd be better if you had a little less blind faith in your own ability to distinguish between 9.6 mL and 9.8 mL in a 10 mL graduated cylinder, or the exact wavelength on an oscilloscope. There's no harm in getting two sets of eyes on a reading, and you need to stop taking it as a personal attack when somebody wants to question your imperfect eyes and imperfect judgment.

 

[JNBirDy]

I think it'd be better if you had a little less blind faith in your own ability to distinguish between 9.6 mL and 9.8 mL in a 10 mL graduated cylinder, or the exact wavelength on an oscilloscope. There's no harm in getting two sets of eyes on a reading, and you need to stop taking it as a personal attack when somebody wants to question your imperfect eyes and imperfect judgment.

Ok. Point taken. I think my posts may have made me come off as someone who thinks they're perfect and can't stand any sort of criticism, which isn't true. In all honesty I'd welcome and hope that I had a lab partner who was so concerned about the accuracy of the lab measurements and results, that they would be willing to take the extra time to double check the measurements, but I haven't. I've only finished my freshman year and I generally pick lab partners based off of friendship - not whether or not they'll help me get a good mark. Also, my lab partners have generally been people who'd rather finish the lab early and leave than stay a bit later but have more accurate results.

 

[Choppy]

It sounds like you're learning one of the more important lessons you can learn in labs - how to collaborate with others.

Keep working at it. There's a reason why 'project management' has become a profession of its own. These aren't the kind of skills that you'll learn over night.

 

[flyingpig]

If possible I always check it behind his or her back.

 

[HeLiXe]

You're just being accurate, and I think that's a very good thing. Checking your partners result is necessary, in my opinion. Whenever I worked it groups with people, I would always check other people's result, I'd point out the mistake and let them correct it. Fine, some people were definitely annoyed with me, but I don't really care.

Keep that accuracy, HeLiXe, you'll benifit a lot from that attitude!

Thanks micromass :). It really does annoy some people. One girl was yelling at me in lab for checking the graduated cylinder :uhh:

Just to add some perspective, it seems like these are mostly introductory labs, no? In that case, most of the students probably are not too engaged in the experiments (as they are somewhat silly, like the carts on the air track you mention). That's why most people just want to get in and get out and move on to more important work.

In an upper division lab course, the kind of rigor you have is extremely useful, and indeed almost necessary. So while you might be wading through a sea of unmotivated fellow undergraduates, I echo micromass' advice: keep it up.

Thanks so much Nabeshin. Yes these are introductory labs.

Part of the reason that I would get offend while others might not is that I haven't had a single lab partner who wasn't a friend of mine. To think that a friend had little faith in my ability would be quite disheartening, however, if it was a stranger who I had met just that day, I would understand that they might not know how competent I am and that they are just being careful.

Also, I've only finished my freshman year at university and all of my labs so far have been introductory-level and quite basic. Meaning that although accuracy was important, being a little bit inaccurate really didn't affect the results or my mark.

That being said, I think that you should still be extremely careful during your labs and try to be as accurate as possible. If to be as accurate as possible you need to check your lab partners measurement and results, then so be it.

Ah okay that explains it a bit better. Still you brought up a good point before, some people may think that checking their work is an underestimation of their ability. The way I see it, if we are working together in a lab we should agree on the data. I'm finishing up my sophomore year so the labs are still basic. Inaccuracy does not affect our marks providing we detail the source of error in our lab reports, but I really think the labs teach us fundamental skills. I would like to work in research one day so I try to get the most from my labs as I can, but I understand others do not have the same goals and labs are not as important to them.

It sounds like you're learning one of the more important lessons you can learn in labs - how to collaborate with others.

Keep working at it. There's a reason why 'project management' has become a profession of its own. These aren't the kind of skills that you'll learn over night.

Thanks so much Choppy :)

If possible I always check it behind his or her back.

:rofl: lolol

 

[turbo]

I was lucky in Chemistry not to have lab-partners. Everybody worked alone. Not so lucky in Physics labs. And yes, if you want to maintain your GPA, it's a good idea for lab-partners to check one another to pick up mistakes. You both should benefit, IMO.

 

[I like Serena]

Basically you can take these classes in a number of directions.


1. You can keep your head down, and adjust to sloppy work. You'll become a good company worker, that does what (s)he's told, and does not make problems.

2. You can do both the work of yourself and your partner, guaranteeing careful work and good results. You'll become a good (solo) scientist this way.
Or perhaps you can make sure the work is divided in such a way, that you do the quality work, and your partner writes for instance the report (I did that a couple of times).

3. You can stimulate and educate your partner to do good work, which will improve your team player skills, although you'll have less time to make sure of good scientific results.

4. You can take charge and tell everyone what to do. If you do it right, they won't get angry, but they'll say: okay, and be happy about it. This way, you'll be on the path of becoming a good project leader.

5. Or you tell your partner (s)he's not doing a good job, and explain what's wrong. That should set you on the path of a quality auditor (take kittens home to compensate).


You choose which path to take.
Actually, it can be fun and a good educational experience to experiment with all of these!

Btw, all of these qualities are useful in a company and in a project.

(Forgive me if my own preferences shine through, for I absolutely hate sloppy work, and I can't live with people disliking me.)

 

[turbo]

In HS, I had the luck of #2 in chemistry. I was paired with a pretty and pleasant young lady, and while I did most of the lab-work, she kept meticulous notes (including problems/uncertainties that we encountered) and did a bang-up job writing up our lab reports. I went on to engineering school and she went on to a top-notch nursing college in Boston. We aced chemistry.

 

[HeLiXe]

(take kittens home to compensate)

:rofl:

In HS, I had the luck of #2 in chemistry. I was paired with a pretty and pleasant young lady, and while I did most of the lab-work, she kept meticulous notes (including problems/uncertainties that we encountered) and did a bang-up job writing up our lab reports. I went on to engineering school and she went on to a top-notch nursing college in Boston. We aced chemistry.

Pretty cool Turbo :) I also tend to get the responsibility of writing up the lab reports...I often volunteer

 

[R.P.F.]

I totally understand your feelings. I'd say stick to what you are doing.
I go to a selective liberal arts college so most people in the lab do have a good sense of responsibility. But still, the majority of people in the lab do not seek the career path as a physicist. So sometimes I'm upset that they do not do things as carefully as I do. I would always voice my opinion (politely) because I will be graded on this lab as well so I want it get done nicely.
As incoming freshmen, most people did not know how to use TeX. I learned how to use TeX as a freshman and I wanted to use it to write my long lab reports. The trouble is, you need to write up the lab report with your lab partner. So what I did is that I persuaded my prof not to assign me a lab partner for the labs where a long lab report is required. :) So I would suggest you do the same thing if you get too annoyed. Of course you have to be academically outstanding, which I believe you are, to get your prof to do that for you.

 

[turbo]

Pretty cool Turbo :) I also tend to get the responsibility of writing up the lab reports...I often volunteer

Good for you. If you're good at it, the whole team will benefit. Becky was VERY good at taking lab-notes and writing up our reports, so our division of labor was quite beneficial! I could whip through the labs, leaving time for do-overs if we got some unexpected results, and she'd document everything very accurately. We always included uncertainties, possible errors, and disclaimers in our lab reports. The chemistry teacher was pretty impressed. He didn't get that level of detail and attention from anybody else in our class.

One day, Becky decided to squirt me with a nalgene water-bottle, thinking it was cute. It was cute (in a way), but I squirted her legs with another bottle containing a silver nitrate solution. She wore opaque stockings for the next week or two.

 

[HeLiXe]

I totally understand your feelings. I'd say stick to what you are doing.
I go to a selective liberal arts college so most people in the lab do have a good sense of responsibility. But still, the majority of people in the lab do not seek the career path as a physicist. So sometimes I'm upset that they do not do things as carefully as I do. I would always voice my opinion (politely) because I will be graded on this lab as well so I want it get done nicely.
As incoming freshmen, most people did not know how to use TeX. I learned how to use TeX as a freshman and I wanted to use it to write my long lab reports. The trouble is, you need to write up the lab report with your lab partner. So what I did is that I persuaded my prof not to assign me a lab partner for the labs where a long lab report is required. :) So I would suggest you do the same thing if you get too annoyed. Of course you have to be academically outstanding, which I believe you are, to get your prof to do that for you.

Thanks so much R.P.F.! Academically I am above average, but not officially outstanding yet:tongue2: I still do not know how to use TeX and have never used it, so naturally I think it is great that you learned it in your freshman year and are using it for your reports. With lab reports I find my partners are quite happy to leave the responsibility of writing it up to me :) Also in our Chem class our prof makes everyone write their own reports, so it is not so bad. In my DE class I had to work with a partner for lab. My experience with him was particularly annoying because he took forever to get back to me about his part of the lab, he did not understand what to do--which is fine because I helped him, and I did all of my part and wrote up the lab. When we had to turn in the report to the prof, he literally ran to the printer to retrieve it, handed it into her, and said a few things to make it seem as if he did the most work LOL I was upset, but would not tell the prof I did most of the work because that's not teamwork.

Good for you. If you're good at it, the whole team will benefit. Becky was VERY good at taking lab-notes and writing up our reports, so our division of labor was quite beneficial! I could whip through the labs, leaving time for do-overs if we got some unexpected results, and she'd document everything very accurately. We always included uncertainties, possible errors, and disclaimers in our lab reports. The chemistry teacher was pretty impressed. He didn't get that level of detail and attention from anybody else in our class.

One day, Becky decided to squirt me with a nalgene water-bottle, thinking it was cute. It was cute (in a way), but I squirted her legs with another bottle containing a silver nitrate solution. She wore opaque stockings for the next week or two.

OMG you guys are so reckless Whatever happened to good ol' dihydrogen monoxide:tongue2:

 

[R.P.F.]

I would actually tell the professor what's going on if I were you. You should receive credits for the work you did. I treat people who take their responsibilities seriously with great respect, but if they don't, I wouldn't be happy about it. I wouldn't mind helping my lab partner but they have to put effort into learning. Humanities classes are totally not my thing and I do not care what grades I get in them because I won't use them when I apply to grad school. But I still did the readings very carefully. Because when we do group discussions, I don't want my group members to feel dragged down by me. It is my responsibility to participate.
But still, it is your decision after all. I don't know what kind of professor you have and what kind of school you go to. As long as you are happy with your decision, it is OK.

 

[micromass]

In my DE class I had to work with a partner for lab. My experience with him was particularly annoying because he took forever to get back to me about his part of the lab, he did not understand what to do--which is fine because I helped him, and I did all of my part and wrote up the lab. When we had to turn in the report to the prof, he literally ran to the printer to retrieve it, handed it into her, and said a few things to make it seem as if he did the most work LOL I was upset, but would not tell the prof I did most of the work because that's not teamwork.

Hmm, that's annoying for you. It's good not to tell the prof that you did most of the work, but make sure you don't end up with that same partner again. It's not ok for you to do all the work and that he just sits there and takes the credit.

 

[I like Serena]

Your partner just shot himself in the foot.

By alienating you he lost himself a good partner.
And trying to make a good impression on the professor won't help him much, if he fails all other exams.

Not really worth worrying much over IMO.
If you feel like it, you might try to "educate" your ex-partner.
(Definitely if you ever have to work with him again.)

 

[HeLiXe]

Hmm, that's annoying for you. It's good not to tell the prof that you did most of the work, but make sure you don't end up with that same partner again. It's not ok for you to do all the work and that he just sits there and takes the credit.

Unfortunately I'm stuck with him -_-

Your partner just shot himself in the foot.

I'm tempted to ask for pictures...

And trying to make a good impression on the professor won't help him much, if he fails all other exams.

I don't know how he's doing on exams...but you are right, details below.

I would actually tell the professor what's going on if I were you. You should receive credits for the work you did. I treat people who take their responsibilities seriously with great respect, but if they don't, I wouldn't be happy about it. I wouldn't mind helping my lab partner but they have to put effort into learning.

Yes I probably overdid it on the help. He did figure out one of the values by himself so I was happy about that. He contacted me at 8pm the day before the report was due, so everything he did was like boon to me at that point:tongue2: I tried to guide him until 10:30pm and then I just walked him through the DE stuff and left him the basic algebra

I neglected to explain how things unraveled because I don't want to gloat... but the prof ended up knowing I did most of the work. She handed the graded report back to me with a huge smile on her face and said "great job" without acknowledging him. I turned to him and told him we made an "A" but he was sore about it. She walked past him to give the report back to me.

 

[micromass]

Unfortunately I'm stuck with him -_-

If I were in this situation, I would go ask the prof if I could work alone. If I help somebody, and then he starts claiming credit for my work, that would be a huge no-no in my book

I neglected to explain how things unraveled because I don't want to gloat... but the prof ended up knowing I did most of the work. She handed the graded report back to me with a huge smile on her face and said "great job" without acknowledging him. I turned to him and told him we made an "A" but he was sore about it. She walked past him to give the report back to me.

Aaah, very good! I'm happy that life is a little bit fair after all!

 

[HeLiXe]

If I were in this situation, I would go ask the prof if I could work alone. If I help somebody, and then he starts claiming credit for my work, that would be a huge no-no in my book

It is in mine too! We were stuck together unwillingly lol and the prof said we have to work with a partner for the labs and we have to keep the same partner until the class ends...no exceptions.

 

[micromass]

It is in mine too! We were stuck together unwillingly lol and the prof said we have to work with a partner for the labs and we have to keep the same partner until the class ends...no exceptions.

Hmmm, that's bad I remember that I never used to like to work in groups, because I always ended up doing all the work. But at least the professor knows you did all of it

Perhaps see it from the bright side. The more work you do know, the better prepared you will be to do research one day

 

[HeLiXe]

Research :!)

Yes I also tend to do most/all of the work when in groups. I think I bring it on myself though. *must act stupiderer* :uhh:

Thx for all of your input micromass :) Love your new signature btw lol