Are Laptops the Future of Textbooks in Education?

[Smurf]

Yes, it's called progression, you might want to keep up with it, or find yourself complaining a lot. :tongue2:

Yes. I suppose I should try harder to catch up on the times. Which half of my brain is it I need to remove?

 

[Moonbear]

Yes, it's called progression, you might want to keep up with it, or find yourself complaining a lot. :tongue2:

Well, it might turn out costly for that one school district, but I think it's something that has to be tried to find out if it will work before a lot of other schools adopt the policy.

One thing that occurred to me though is your comment about back strain from carrying the textbooks, Kerrie. At first, that sounded sensible. I know I had a lot of headaches from neck strain when still in school, and it still returns if I have a lot of stuff I'm carrying back and forth to the office. However, as I've let the thought settle a bit and mulled it over more, I'm wondering if we'll just be substituting one ailment for another. Instead of back strain, will the kids be more susceptible to repetitive stress injuries and eyestrain? Since they're all using laptops, and laptop keyboards are considered the worst kind of keyboard for repetitive stress injuries due to their flat layout and cramped keys that can affect both the hands/wrists, and your shoulders/neck from being hunched as you type, along with the fact that you can't adjust the height of the monitor either.

Will they also remember to teach them to look up from the monitor from time to time to avoid eye strain?

 

[Smurf]

Pffft, nonsense. They'll build up an immunity after 10 or so years, just like I did.

 

[Evo]

One thing that occurred to me though is your comment about back strain from carrying the textbooks, Kerrie. At first, that sounded sensible. I know I had a lot of headaches from neck strain when still in school, and it still returns if I have a lot of stuff I'm carrying back and forth to the office. However, as I've let the thought settle a bit and mulled it over more, I'm wondering if we'll just be substituting one ailment for another. Instead of back strain, will the kids be more susceptible to repetitive stress injuries and eyestrain? Since they're all using laptops, and laptop keyboards are considered the worst kind of keyboard for repetitive stress injuries due to their flat layout and cramped keys that can affect both the hands/wrists, and your shoulders/neck from being hunched as you type, along with the fact that you can't adjust the height of the monitor either.

Will they also remember to teach them to look up from the monitor from time to time to avoid eye strain?

Businesses that give their employees laptops give them external keyboards and monitors to prevent problems. If the kids are expected to be on the laptops all day, they will also need to furnish these.

 

[Smurf]

okay, shopping list so far:

Laptop per student
External keyboard per student
external monitor per student
wireless connection for each laptop connected to central intranet with possible internet access
IT guy to monitor intranet and student laptops to prevent unauthorized use

Okay, what's next? I think we should give them all free tap dancing lessons too!

 

[Evo]

okay, shopping list so far:

Laptop per student
External keyboard per student
external monitor per student
wireless connection for each laptop connected to central intranet with possible internet access
IT guy to monitor intranet and student laptops to prevent unauthorized use

Okay, what's next? I think we should give them all free tap dancing lessons too!

If Smurf headed the school board, kids would still be writing on clay tablets and using an abacus.

I guess one concern would be how they will adjust to college after having been taught this way.

It would have been smarter to have desktop computers and the kid could just log on in on the desk top in the next class he attends, accessing his information, there is no need for laptops.

 

[Smurf]

If Smurf headed the school board, kids would still be writing on clay tablets and using an abacus.

If I headed the schoolboard... :!)

Yeah, that's not something most of you would agree with me on, methinks.

 

[Kerrie]

Well, it might turn out costly for that one school district, but I think it's something that has to be tried to find out if it will work before a lot of other schools adopt the policy.

One thing that occurred to me though is your comment about back strain from carrying the textbooks, Kerrie. At first, that sounded sensible. I know I had a lot of headaches from neck strain when still in school, and it still returns if I have a lot of stuff I'm carrying back and forth to the office. However, as I've let the thought settle a bit and mulled it over more, I'm wondering if we'll just be substituting one ailment for another. Instead of back strain, will the kids be more susceptible to repetitive stress injuries and eyestrain? Since they're all using laptops, and laptop keyboards are considered the worst kind of keyboard for repetitive stress injuries due to their flat layout and cramped keys that can affect both the hands/wrists, and your shoulders/neck from being hunched as you type, along with the fact that you can't adjust the height of the monitor either.

Will they also remember to teach them to look up from the monitor from time to time to avoid eye strain?

good point, but eyestrain has been around long before laptops. i think the main objective of using laptops instead of textbooks is costs of the books (they are very expensive and add up when you have 5+ classes for every year) and the simple fact you can condense information onto a little chip or CD. if it was a guaranteed fact that each student had a desktop at home, CD's would certainly be the way to go. the laptops also are loaded with word processing programs for students to type reports for example instead of having to go to a library and use a clunky typewriter.

it's inevitable though, within several years, i wouldn't be surprised if textbooks are obsoleted and replaced with technology in one form or another.

 

[Moonbear]

good point, but eyestrain has been around long before laptops. i think the main objective of using laptops instead of textbooks is costs of the books (they are very expensive and add up when you have 5+ classes for every year) and the simple fact you can condense information onto a little chip or CD. if it was a guaranteed fact that each student had a desktop at home, CD's would certainly be the way to go. the laptops also are loaded with word processing programs for students to type reports for example instead of having to go to a library and use a clunky typewriter.

it's inevitable though, within several years, i wouldn't be surprised if textbooks are obsoleted and replaced with technology in one form or another.

I guess that will depend on the wear and tear and replacement costs. It's bad enough when a kid loses a book somewhere and has to pay to replace it, but what happens when it's a laptop computer they lose? Or they don't lose it but drop it? Or get caught out in the rain walking to school or waiting for the school bus? If you have to provide the kids with laptops, it's going to get expensive continually replacing them, plus software upgrades, etc. I don't know that cost is really going to be reduced. I think it's more that the world is moving more and more toward a paperless society and kids need to be comfortable working on computers if they want to be able to get a job after they graduate nowadays. As the article mentioned, and I cited the quote earlier, even though these kids are growing up on computer games, they still haven't learned the practical uses of computers, and that's a skill our schools need to be including now.

I'm not overly worried about them passing notes via IM and stuff like that. Afterall, we passed notes when I was a kid too. A good teacher can detect when students aren't paying attention by asking questions and noticing if they are writing/typing at times when nothing is being said that they should need to write, and there's always the telltale giggle of someone who can't suppress their laughter at something passed along in a note. So, now they'll be doing it via IM instead of by passing notes along when the teacher's back is turned. They'll always find a way. And an attentive teacher is going to walk around the room from time to time to know if they are doing anything else they shouldn't be doing instead of paying attention. But, in the end, you could be sitting there quietly doing nothing distracting and still not be paying any attention and just staring into space.

I do hope they continue to include assignments that remind them that there are bound paper books still in the library that contain information you cannot find online. This is a problem I'm seeing with grad students already. If it was published prior to 1966 and doesn't come up on a PubMed search, as far as they are concerned, it never existed. They need to be learning not just what they can do with technology, but what its limitations are as well.

 

[Kerrie]

costs in keeping textbooks up to date are expensive too. not sure how long textbooks remain in circulation, but printing is VERY expensive, i remember working at a printing company for nearly 5 years, and it amazing how much it costs to run a press and pay the person to run that press.

remember when computers cost over $2000? that was only 10 years ago, even less. now the costs of technology are coming down dramatically, especially if the laptops are bought in bulk.

i don't believe our education system will replace books altogether, there is a certain amount of relaxation to reading a book, and i am sure teachers will include reading those classics as assignments for a long time. the laptop is just a different tool to funnel the same information essentially.

 

[Moonbear]

costs in keeping textbooks up to date are expensive too. not sure how long textbooks remain in circulation, but printing is VERY expensive, i remember working at a printing company for nearly 5 years, and it amazing how much it costs to run a press and pay the person to run that press.

It'll probably wind up about the same. I just don't think it's really going to be a cost-saving measure is all.

i don't believe our education system will replace books altogether, there is a certain amount of relaxation to reading a book, and i am sure teachers will include reading those classics as assignments for a long time. the laptop is just a different tool to funnel the same information essentially.

I hope that will be true. I think this idea of using the two medias to complement each other in student instruction is the best approach.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

When I posted a thread in Politics on the new scheme CA was trying to pass of shortening textbooks and replacing content with internet sites where information can be obtained Kat brought this up. Apparently they are already doing this in her state, I think she said New Hampshire and she said her kids are doing quite well with it. The problem is with places like here in CA. There are so many schools that are behind and densely packed with kids from low income families. What happens if you can't afford a laptop, a computer at home, internet access at home? You just get screwed?

 

[Evo]

When I posted a thread in Politics on the new scheme CA was trying to pass of shortening textbooks and replacing content with internet sites where information can be obtained Kat brought this up. Apparently they are already doing this in her state, I think she said New Hampshire and she said her kids are doing quite well with it. The problem is with places like here in CA. There are so many schools that are behind and densely packed with kids from low income families. What happens if you can't afford a laptop, a computer at home, internet access at home? You just get screwed?

Kids that don't have internet access outside of school are at a disadvantage when compared to those that do. Kids that can access information freely, will always have an advantage. One of the reasons when I was growing up that having an up to date set of encyclopedias at home was important, it gave you an edge, (if you read a lot).

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Kids that don't have internet access outside of school are at a disadvantage when compared to those that do. Kids that can access information freely, will always have an advantage. One of the reasons when I was growing up that having an up to date set of encyclopedias at home was important, it gave you an edge, (if you read a lot).

I came from a relatively low income family. I used old encyclopedias and the library when I was in school.
With this in mind as being a disadvantage already then we should be careful not to make it even more of one by making kids get their classroom content through the internet. Not only will they not have the information available to other kids who have internet access but they won't even have access to the content they are expected to for the class itself unless they have lab time at school.

 

[Smurf]

What happens if you can't afford a laptop, a computer at home, internet access at home? You just get screwed?

You go to the computer lab after school. You go to the local library. What you DON'T do is give every kid a free lap top because they can't be bothered to cope with the slight advantage other kids have of being able to eat when using a computer. Does anyone else see this as plain stupidity? It's like in Iraq, vehicles keep getting blown up, so you damn yanks just say "Well, let's put more armor on it, that should work". So now you're vehicles are twice as heavy, consuming 30% more fuel, have a 20% lower max speed, 20% slower acceleration and the RPG-7 still blows them up because it can punch through 500mm of steel at long range and 2-3 times that at the low ranges it is usually fired at. All because you guys couldn't be bothered to train soldiers to accompany tanks on foot, always been the single biggest danger to an RPG gunner.

HOW ARE YOU STILL A SUPERPOWER!??! :grumpy: :rofl: :uhh: :shy:

 

[Moonbear]

You go to the computer lab after school. You go to the local library. What you DON'T do is give every kid a free lap top because they can't be bothered to cope with the slight advantage other kids have of being able to eat when using a computer. Does anyone else see this as plain stupidity?

No, there's more to it than just the advantage of eating while using the computer. I also grew up in a family that was probably not low income, but lower middle class...we weren't poor, but we didn't have much extra at the end of the month either and both my parents had to work (that's not chose to work, that's had to work). It was hard enough to get to the library let alone spend time using it. Prior to high school, I couldn't stay after school for anything because there was nobody to pick me up if I didn't get my bus home. There were after-school activities I pleaded with my parents to do, but it had nothing to do with them not wanting to allow me to join them, they just could not take the time off from work to pick me up. When I got to high school, there were "late" buses that would take students home from their after school activities. Of course that meant if you needed to stay after school for 30 min for something, you had to wait another hour and a half for the bus that took you home because they were timed to give the kids on athletic teams a ride home after practice. It also meant that instead of the 20 min bus ride back to your neighborhood, you were riding around for another 1.5 to 2 hours (I lived in one of the furthest neighborhoods from the school) because the route covered half the town. I don't know if you've ever tried doing homework on a school bus, but it just doesn't work, so to stay afterschool for 30 min, you lost 3 to 4 hours of study/homework time.

There was also a bus that went past the public library from the high school, so that was finally an option if I needed to do library work, since prior to that I was unable to get to the library on weekdays...by the time my parents got home from work and made dinner for us, it would be too late for them to take us to the library.

And I was better off than a lot of other kids whose families don't even have cars. I love the idea that a poorer kid can now have a laptop and do their research from home instead of having to wait until their parents can get them to a library.

It would be good if the schools could also set up a dial-up line for the kids who can't afford internet access at home to be able to still access those resources. Just think about the students who have access to this site and all the help they can get here that a kid without internet access 1) doesn't even know exists and 2) if they did know, can't use. Sure, if the school had a computer lab, maybe some of them could stay and do their research assignments in the little time the school stays open for them (though paying the staff salaries to keep that open might cost more than just buying the laptops...they don't need high-end fancy laptops with tons of memory, and can use an education discount to purchase them), but what happens when they get home and get stuck on a homework problem? The kid with internet access has an advantage over the kid without, especially if they're getting stuck in something their parents can't help with.

Well, though I can give an opposite example too. I remember taking my first "computer science" class in junior high school (on those old Apple II computers with the green monitors). We were taught just to program in BASIC (other computer languages were taught in high school). At that time, about half the class had some sort of computer at home like a Commodore 64. There was what definitely appeared to be an advantage for those kids who could go home and when given an assignment to write a program, could actually write it on their computer and run it to see if it worked and modify it if it didn't, so when they handed in their homework, their programs worked. On the other hand, those of us who did not have computers at home really had to be meticulous about it and understand what we were doing well enough to write the program and get it right without being able to test it. When it came time for in-class tests, those of us without computers at home fared better because we hadn't formed careless habits and didn't rely on running the program to help us find the bugs.

That all said, I think the best starting place for such a program would be in rural school districts where the kids live far from the school and libraries. In a city school district, I keep having these thoughts of the kids all being mugged on the way home from school and having their laptops stolen to be sold for drug money. In a city school, I'd lean more toward the suggestion of having desktops in the school. Plus, in a city, it's a little easier for kids to get around to libraries due to the availability of public transportation (in some cities, that's how students get to school too, so they all get bus passes that allow them to ride free).

 

[Smurf]

Cost of hiring a few new buses to run at afterhours vs. cost of buying every kid a laptop and all those other gadgets.

Damn, you yanks really do run a service economy. Instead of solving problems you just move them around.

 

[Zantra]

I think laptops in schools are a good idea, and an inevitable one. While I agree that some students would be at a disadvantage, there are resources such as the library and computer labs that could be taken advantage of. As far as the hacking thing, computer security is only as good as the admin. If kids can get around it, then he's not doing his job. As evo could attest, instituting group policy objects, disabling all extra ports like smtp, telnet, etc and a good firewall could do wonders. You can lock out the dos prompt, regedit, prevent downloading and installation of programs, You can even lock out the ability to change the screen saver if you want. Are there ways to circumvent? most likely but that's becoming less and less prevalent. I remember in win2k sp 1 you could get around the group policy in certain things by using the help menu (I believe that's since been patched). But a professionally secured intranet would be hack proof. Computers are the wave of the future, and their medium is as certain as CD's were 20 years ago.

I remember first learning to program on an apple IIe

HLIN 10
VLIN 50
HRES 40
PRINT

hello world:D

 

[Smurf]

But a professionally secured intranet would be hack proof.

You're kidding, right? First of all, there's no such thing and never will be. Secondly, you're pitting 3000ish technology age youth against a few nerdy types who are going to use Zonecontrol and WPA to try and limit what the kids can do through their wireless routers... I'm putting my money on the kids.

 

[Moonbear]

Cost of hiring a few new buses to run at afterhours vs. cost of buying every kid a laptop and all those other gadgets.

Damn, you yanks really do run a service economy. Instead of solving problems you just move them around.

Smurf, perhaps we would consider it an investment in the future to have our children graduating with the ability to use the tools they will need to have to be competitive in the modern world. We already pay for every kid to have books, which is not cheap either, as Kerrie pointed out. Would you be making the same argument if we said we were going to make every kid buy their own books, and the poor kids can just go to the library and try to share the few copies there? Computers are being used in everything we do nowadays. Even the auto mechanic has a computer to do his billing and track inventory. What we can't afford to do is have students who are computer illiterate or who view computer use as something hard they had to do for one class. If they have the computer fully available to them and have to incorporate it as part of their day-to-day routine, they will be far more comfortable with using them. And with standardized testing being done on computers, the last thing we should be doing is leaving kids who don't have access to computers with an added level of anxiety about taking the tests because they are not used to working with computers, or because they type more slowly for essay components of such tests.

Also, we won't be buying all new computers every year for every kid. This is the sort of thing that would work just like paper books, at the end of the year, you turn them in and the next year, you get handed what you need for that year. School kids won't need the latest and most expensive models with DVD burners and all the bells and whistles that make computers expensive. You can get great deals on computers when you buy large numbers as an educational institution too.

Oh, Evo asked about how well prepared these kids would be for college if they're working on computers rather than using books. I think they'll be better prepared than the kids who are using only books. More and more college classrooms are switching to using computers as well, not just PowerPoint presentations for lectures, but course materials and hand-outs and review materials are now available online (our grad students think we're still in the dark ages if we hand them paper copies of a journal article or email them the PDF instead of putting the PDF up on Blackboard), and tests are given online. For multiple choice style tests, they can get their results immediately, and for essay style tests, it's a lot easier to read what's submitted typed from a computer than trying to sort out students' handwriting.

One thing the schools will need to evaluate is how tests would be administered if they are done on the computers too. If they have their textbooks and assignments and research information all on their laptops, then they're going to have to consider that all tests are pretty much open book format. They'll also need to sort out how these students will retain copies of their assignments and notes during the summer and for future reference if they are all on the computers and not in notebooks they will keep.

 

[Zantra]

You're kidding, right? First of all, there's no such thing and never will be. Secondly, you're pitting 3000ish technology age youth against a few nerdy types who are going to use Zonecontrol and WPA to try and limit what the kids can do through their wireless routers... I'm putting my money on the kids.

You're assuming that we're talking about a room full of Kevin Mitnicks. the average kid may be computer savvy but won't be able to get around a checkpoint firewall. And no I'm not talking about zone alarm. I mean a professional setup. But I will agree with you that a lot of school admins underestimate kid's computer knowledge. As far as totally secure, there will always be those out there trying to circumvent the system, just like there will always bank robbers. But we're not closing down all the banks are we?

 

[Moonbear]

You're kidding, right? First of all, there's no such thing and never will be. Secondly, you're pitting 3000ish technology age youth against a few nerdy types who are going to use Zonecontrol and WPA to try and limit what the kids can do through their wireless routers... I'm putting my money on the kids.

But the kids who are going to be that saavy are those who will already have computers at home. Why would they bother spending the time hacking around the school computer security when they can just go home and freely access what they want on their own computer?

But, inherent in your statement there is precisely the reason we need this..."technology age youth"...indeed, that's the point. I wonder if schools faced such resistance over using paper and ballpoint pens instead of slates and chalk? Or imagine those complaints about the schools wasting money buying every kid their own book for class and giving them dittos with their homework assignments instead of making them all copy down homework problems off a chalk board.

 

[Moonbear]

You're assuming that we're talking about a room full of Kevin Mitnicks. the average kid may be computer savvy but won't be able to get around a checkpoint firewall. And no I'm not talking about zone alarm. I mean a professional setup. But I will agree with you that a lot of school admins underestimate kid's computer knowledge. As far as totally secure, there will always be those out there trying to circumvent the system, just like there will always bank robbers. But we're not closing down all the banks are we?

Hmm...this made me realize something else. If these kids do wind up learning to get through the firewalls, then maybe they've really learned to use a computer. And those who didn't know how it was done, but saw it done now have a better sense of security vulnerabilities when they go out into the world and start up businesses and hire someone to set up an office intranet...they won't be as oblivious to the security vulnerabilities as many office managers currently are.

 

[Kerrie]

As for the internet issue, who says these laptops necessarily have to have a connection at home? Can't these machines just be used to view pre-loaded educational material? Maybe have a typing program to learn to type, a word processing program, and then have the ability to hook up to a school printer to print out assignments and reports?

I think the main issue is the condensation of reading material. Kids can be expected to take care of these laptops, and will understand the consequences if they abuse it-same as if a textbook is lost, the parents/students are responsible for their replacement. The material can easily be loaded onto the laptop if it needs updating, whereas printing books is very expensive.

If a dial up internet access is necessary, you would have to be sure the student even had a phone line. Wireless internet of course is on its way, but still an expensive technology at this point.

At any rate, I believe laptops are the wave of the future for a learning tool and will replace most textbooks, if not all in America.

 

[Zantra]

Hmm...this made me realize something else. If these kids do wind up learning to get through the firewalls, then maybe they've really learned to use a computer. And those who didn't know how it was done, but saw it done now have a better sense of security vulnerabilities when they go out into the world and start up businesses and hire someone to set up an office intranet...they won't be as oblivious to the security vulnerabilities as many office managers currently are.

It's kind of a joke- today's hacker is tommorrow's IT security expert ceo.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

But the kids who are going to be that saavy are those who will already have computers at home. Why would they bother spending the time hacking around the school computer security when they can just go home and freely access what they want on their own computer?

Lol... you're joking right? If you were a brainy computer wiz trapped in class and bored for several hours a day with a computer infront of you that you aren't supposed to be able to hack what do you think you'd be doing? And these kids could do it for other kids too in exchange for money or various possible things.

The problems in bigger cities that you already pointed out to some degree is the crime. A pretty decent percentage of crime happens on school campuses. A kid taking a laptop home could have it stolen from him sure. He might also sell it himself or decide to destroy it just for the hell of it. Maybe a bully will destroy it or a pissed off parent.

You go to the computer lab after school. You go to the local library. What you DON'T do is give every kid a free lap top because they can't be bothered to cope with the slight advantage other kids have of being able to eat when using a computer. Does anyone else see this as plain stupidity?

That is what I'm arguing. A kid that has to use a computer at school to do all their work may not have a computer at home to be able to continue doing their work. Even if they have a laptop they may not have internet access. Here in California they already want to cut textbook content and replace it with a listing of websites where you can get the information from instead. In someplaces around here they don't even want the kids on campus after school because of the number of fights and amount of drug and gang activity that goes on around them after school is out. Going to the library might be just as much a problem. It may cost money. The only free internet access I have seen at a library in a not very nice neighborhood around here was limited to a half hour.

 

[Evo]

How about a rule that if you hack into your laptop you get booted back to a regular school? Maybe we need to teach kids that priveleges are earned. Maybe teach them some responsibility?

I didn't see anything about these kids being able to take their laptops home, does anyone know what they're allowing the kids to do?

 

[dduardo]

How about a rule that if you hack into your laptop you get booted back to a regular school? Maybe we need to teach kids that priveleges are earned. Maybe teach them some responsibility?

I didn't see anything about these kids being able to take their laptops home, does anyone know what they're allowing the kids to do?

Why don't they just charge them with felonies:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/12343436.htm

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Why don't they just charge them with felonies:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/12343436.htm

I think that might be going a bit far.

And really if they are smart enough to crack a well designed security system they should be in a higher level learning environment not booted into a lower level one.

 

[Evo]

I think that might be going a bit far.

And really if they are smart enough to crack a well designed security system they should be in a higher level learning environment not booted into a lower level one.

Yeah, but then we could also say that for safe cracking and other illegal activities that require some thought and skill.

 

[Moonbear]

How about a rule that if you hack into your laptop you get booted back to a regular school? Maybe we need to teach kids that priveleges are earned. Maybe teach them some responsibility?

Send them to military school! That should teach those scrawny geeks not to hack the school-owned laptops.