# Legal to refuse money in store?

1. Jan 2, 2004

### Monique

Staff Emeritus
With the arrival of the Euro many stores are now refusing to accept bills of €50 or larger.. you have to go to the bank to get your money changed into smaller denomination.

If you want to buy an item of €99,50 and you give them a €100 bill, you are out of luck, they are not going to give you your 50 cents.

I think it is absolutely rediculous, bills have a legal monetary value and thus should be accepted in the stores.

2. Jan 2, 2004

### Monique

Staff Emeritus
Btw, banks are closed most of the time and if you pull €100 out of the wall, you get a €100 bill. Or you'd have to pull a €20 5 times

3. Jan 2, 2004

### Eh

This problem has been around for a while in North America. The problem with the majority of stores not accepting $100 bills goes back at least 10 years. Now it appears to be happening with$50 bills, as stores are getting ripped off by fakes to the point of not wanting anything to do with paper money. I agree it's bull**** that I can't use money of certain notes in most stores, but what alternative do we have? There is no reason a small business should have to get ripped off by customers with fake money, but that's exactly what happens. Refusing currency of high notes is the only protection they have. You might not have sympathy for big corporations in this situation, but remember they can end up with annual loses in the millions from fake bills.

So unless the government stops printing such notes, there doesn't seem to be an easy way out. Fortunately, in my area banks only dispense $20 bills. If you request$100, you get five $20's. Keeps things simple. 4. Jan 2, 2004 ### Monique Staff Emeritus Yeah, well, we never had this problem before until the arrival of the Euro 5. Jan 2, 2004 ### Eh The crooks in Europe are just getting caught up with the west. A uniform currency makes counterfeiting more lucrative. 6. Jan 2, 2004 ### Adam Australian money is all different colours. They've thrown in every sort of secret little security measure. http://www.noteprinting.com/innovation.html [Broken] It all looks like Monopoly money. Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017 7. Jan 2, 2004 ### Zantra *pulls out his old monopoly set* hmmmmmmmmmm..... Well I know as more time goes by the trend towards a paperless monetary system is coming closer and closer. Eventually everything will be plastic, and even father along(maybe not in our lifetimes) currency will be uniform worldwide, and "Credits" will take the place of paper currency. Ideally anyhow..(or maybe I've just read one too many sci-fi books.. hehe) Not that this will stop counterfitters. they will just move to cyber crime (which is already happening). Personally, I use my bank card most of the time, as it is far more convenient, and safer for that matter. I carry a minimum of cash because I always found myself "short" and having to use plastic anyhow. Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017 8. Jan 2, 2004 ### Njorl American money is getting harder to counterfeit, and the Euro presents a better target than the old single-nation European currencies. Those might combine for a boom in counterfeiting the Euro. An intersting story, just a bit OT. Small bills over here, 1's and 5's, don't have as much security. I heard about this place had a copying machine that only took coins. Next to it was a change machine so that people could exchange bills for change to put in the copier. Someone decided to copy their money, and put it in the change machine until they had all the coins. It worked. I guess the moral is don't use better tech in your copiers than you do in your money. Njorl 9. Jan 2, 2004 ### Zantra The metal strip put an end to that here. That and the 3D images and other things that are practically impossible to duplicate. Yes, back in the day I heard more than once of someone using a laser printer to make counterfits and feed them to change dispensers. FBI was on that quick though, and they changed the bill changers quickly. 10. Jan 2, 2004 ### Monique Staff Emeritus Since when wasn't Europe western?? And from what I've heard is that the number of counterfeight bills is not larger as before the Euro was there. And yeah, it all looks like monopoly money: http://www.anwaltverein.de/03/fotos/geld.jpg [Broken] The bills are huge, I had to buy a new wallet :( And plastic money is no safer, recently there was a report of thieves placing a little electronic device on top of the card feeder in ATM machines, that way they were able to extract all information from the magnetic strip. Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017 11. Jan 2, 2004 ### Monique Staff Emeritus I have always wondered: how does a blind person recognize the different denominations on American bills?? Here is how the Dutch used to recognize our currency: http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Niek/gulden.jpg [Broken] (copy n past link into new window) There is no copyright notice anymore on the Euro! See! That is where the trouble starts.. Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017 12. Jan 2, 2004 ### kyleb there is no metal strip in ones and fives. 13. Jan 3, 2004 ### Sonty Since everybody is putting their own country in the middle of the map. I guess everybody is trying to protect themselves from stupid greedy thieves. Back home I know of a lot of people we usually call "lamers". A lot of kids getting wind of stuff like hacking, cracking or carding. They find all sorts of stupid programs on the internet, don't know how they work and, but use them. Some morons in my town bought stuff from the internet and ordered them at their own home. Their parents signed for the deliveries. They ordered only expensive stuff like laptops and computers. When they hit about 10.000 euro the police knocked on their door as they had found the carding methods they had discovered really worked and overdosed. It was the biggest bust in electronic crime in my city. Highschool kids that are stupid enough to get caught. Nevertheless sites like ebay and amazon as far as I know don't deliver in Romania since mid '90s. That's because of the non-lamers who know how to order and how to watch their backs when they pick up the products. I know that now people are using addresses in Hungary or all over the area and from those adresses they forward the products through another couple of adresses so you can supervise if anyone is tracing the shippment. It's the same with normal money. If you want to counterfit 500 euro bills you'll get professional printers, get inside information, devices and paper from the ones that print money legally. You have to oil some wheels for that. You have to make an investment to get a big profit and most are not willing to do that. So if you have an ordinary printer (meaning a top printer) why would you as a normal brained person expect to successfully counterfit 500s? The good thieves are the one that you don't hear about. The ones that smile to the surveilance cameras while they're stealling. Everybody wants to get rich fast. That's a weakness. That's why they get caught. If you stay small you can do whatever you like. Give it time. 14. Jan 3, 2004 ### Monique Staff Emeritus Well, who's task is it to prove the money is real? Should we, the people, carry devices that prove the identity of the money or should the store owner? There are many build-in characteristics with which a bill can be validated, UV marks, watermarks, who knows what with the Euro. If all fits the description of a €50 bill, it is a €50 bill. So I guess this is the beginning of the end of paper currency.. 15. Jan 3, 2004 ### Zantra Well basically monique it's supply and demand. If enough people refuse to shop somehwere that doesn't offer to validate the bills, eventually it affects the bottom line of the business. Couple that with people taking thier business to places where they WILL validate, and businesses are forced to validate to remain competitive. A lot of places here in the states will validate. I'm sure you've paid for something here, and had someone hold up a 20 to check for the metal strip or scrutinize it. It's seller beware, not buyer. So eventually europe will be forced to adopt the same standards, or loose money. When the money lost in sales supercedes profit losses from counterfitters(which isn't too hard) then it makes good business sense to take the responsibility. A completely paperless system is still a ways away. Change is slow. 16. Jan 3, 2004 ### Monique Staff Emeritus Why people always talk like Europe is so far behind? "So eventually europe will be forced to adopt the same standards, or loose money." As I said, the amount of counterfeiting has not increased with the arrival of the Euro, it is just the stupid cashiers that don't know what a €100 bill is supposed to look like. "A completely paperless system is still a ways away. Change is slow." In the US maybe, not here. That is why all the stores are ABLE to refuse money, since everyone pinns. I could easily transfer money from my account to my parents' without having to get up from this chair and it won't cost a penny. There is just the situation where it is better to do it in cash, but the cash if useless since nothing can be bought with it. 17. Jan 3, 2004 ### Zantra I only meant that Europe is still going through a lot of changes due to the standardization, and the US anti-counterfitting process is more advanced because we've had the same currency for so long. The reason for the disparity in the process is quite simply, access to technology. I just saw a laser printer on sale at best buy for only 700 USD. That makes it very affordable. However laser printers, card readers, and other equipment required to do counterfitting have been readily available at a substantial cost in the states for over 2 decades. It's unfortunate, but technology comes first and most the the states because of the huge consumer base able to purchase such high end products. That isn't to say that Europeans can't afford them at all, but that people in the states have more buying power. I"m not rubbing anything in, I'm just pointing out the reasons for the lag. 18. Jan 3, 2004 ### Monique Staff Emeritus I can easily see how you can print a green bill on a laser printer.. I never understood what safety features are inside US currency to prevent forgery. Except for a metal strip, apparently. European bills are IMPOSSIBLE to print with a laser printer, have been for many years. They contain hollographic images, mettalic strips on the outside, fluorescent fibers, watermarks, impossible to print fineprint, some gold looking imprints, reflective ink, partial images that shine through to the other side to make a whole image, and they are printed in all color of the rainbow. *Edit* just tested: they have a metal strip insight too. I have a US bill in front of me now.. there is a.. yes, a watermark, testing.. yes, a strip which I can't tear.. and the$20 bill has some reflective ink on one of the 20's on the front. That's it.

Sooo, conclusion? To counterfeight US bills you just need a laserprinter with green ink and some metal strips.

Last edited: Jan 3, 2004
19. Jan 3, 2004

### Eh

Well, not this far west. Bad choice of words I suppose.
That would be surprising, because a currency covering a much wider circulation would seem much more viable. Pretty money, at any rate.

20. Jan 3, 2004

### Zantra

You're absolutely correct. I'm not familiar with all the counterfitting measures the US uses, but that's about it as far as I can tell. I wasn't trying to say that the US has better counterfitting measures. It's just different than Europe. Sorry if I infered that.

21. Jan 3, 2004

### Monique

Staff Emeritus
Well, I am not sure what you were trying to say..? and what lag you are talking about?

But what I meant to say is that there are a dozen of security features is the present (and the past Dutch) currency, which makes it very unlikely to be counterfeighted, IF you have the eye to distinguish right from wrong.

Apparently the store owners don't trust their employees to make the judgement and thus refuse to take the new currency, instead they do all transactions electronically, business is not lost since electronic banking is wide-spread in this country (unless for some reason you don't want to use a card).

22. Jan 3, 2004

### Monique

Staff Emeritus
Also, we don't use creditcards in Europe, so electronic transactions don't cost the store owner a dime.

23. Jan 3, 2004

### Mr. Robin Parsons

Just to inform, the printing presses that almost all currencies are printed on are Italio(sp?) presses, the trade in them is severly restricted, the reason is because an "Italio" press presses the ink onto the bill, not into the bill, feel the money, and notice that, the ink used is raised above the surface of the paper, the "feel of money".

The US uses other methods then what has been mentioned herein, as does most of the world, but they don't tell....Pssst that's how to catch the crooks...

Here in Canada (apparently) the crooks have graduated right down to the twenty dollar bills now, nobody wants the $50.00 of the$100.00 bills anymore, due to the counterfeiting...you can always send any suspect or uncertain monies my way
....insert into the slot provided, here--> ___________ <--there

P.S. (EDIT) as for refusing currency, here in Canada they are (to the best of my knowledge) allowed to, to the point where they can refuse you based upon the quantity of denominations used...ie can refuse to accept 10,000 pennies as payment, that kind of thing...

Last edited: Jan 3, 2004
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