Legality of Cannabis: Exploring the Debate

[TylerH]

Oh yeah, because smoking pot has no effects.

Can you show me what I said that even implies that? You can't, because my quote only speaks of the impairment *in terms of road tracking*.

I said nothing about the effects on memory or whatever it was that caused that person to leave their baby on the roof of their car nor did I say anything that implied no such effects existed.

In case it wasn't obvious by the fact that I quoted him, I was responding only to nitsuj's proposition that a zero tolerance policy is something that everyone should agree with.

 

[Evo]

Can you show me what I said that even implies that? You can't, because my quote only speaks of the impairment *in terms of road tracking*.

I said nothing about the effects on memory or whatever it was that caused that person to leave their baby on the roof of their car nor did I say anything that implied no such effects existed.

In case it wasn't obvious by the fact that I quoted him, I was responding only to nitsuj's proposition that a zero tolerance policy is something that everyone should agree with.

I think marijuana should be legalized with the same restrictions as alcohol.

But we can't pretend that abusers don't get f'd up on it.

 

[ThomasT]

I think marijuana should be legalized with the same restrictions as alcohol.

But we can't pretend that abusers don't get f'd up on it.

I agree, and there are laws against driving (operating machinery, etc.) while under the influence of marijuana (just as with alcolhol and other behavior altering drugs). I think that a person should be allowed to grow and consume marijuana for personal use in the same way that a person is allowed to make a few gallons of beer at home for personal use.

Personally, I don't smoke marijuana (but do like its aroma), though I know people my age who do, and though it's quite easy to get with virtually no risk -- but it's current classification and the laws against possession and use make no sense, imo.

The war on drugs has, imo, turned out to be a colossal mess, leading to lots of unnecessary corruption and violent crime.

Imo, we should put the marijuana cartels out of business by legalizing pot.

For a little history on, imo, one of the influential precursors to the current attitudes of a certain significant portion of the US populace see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

 

[nitsuj]

http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/misc/driving/dot78_1g.htm
How about we rely on scientific research instead of baseless opinion/conjecture to decide what others should and shouldn't agree with.

How about...screw the scientific research, which merely ATTEMPTS to quantify an effect. It can't be done.

When getting behind the wheel of a 2,000kg machine on public roads, zero tolerance is best. All else is guess work.

I [STRIKE]never[/STRIKE] rarely drink. I could go all day with no food, pop some blood thinner, pop a shot of vodka and have a "buzz" that despite level of impairment, is an impairment.

If I crash and kill, who's to know if my thin blood & alcohol had an influence in the cause. Certainly not historical scientific research.

It's your duty to be in tip top shape when getting behind the wheel.

Sorry if it was the terminology "all should agree" that's upsetting you, how presumptuous of me to think everyone would agree with their civic duty before getting behind the wheel.

 

[btbam91]

I'm personally against it. But if it ever is legalized, I'd want it to be taxed like hell and the money be put to good use.

 

[ghost_r32]

If there's one thing I've learned in my life, its one of my mottos "Weed Ruins Friendships"
Its a social life killer and ruins ambitions. Sure some people may argue that their life is "improved" or "not affected adversely" by it. But maybe you're one in a million. So many around me are into it and I hate it so much. I could go on and on but to cut a long story short I've lost a couple of best mates to it and my brother skips school because he's smoking it. He's got such a bright future but he's throwing it down the drain. I hate the BS videos I see about how great it is, its benefits and all that. Its just brainwashing the younger generation.

 

[nitsuj]

If there's one thing I've learned in my life, its one of my mottos "Weed Ruins Friendships"
Its a social life killer and ruins ambitions. Sure some people may argue that their life is "improved" or "not affected adversely" by it. But maybe you're one in a million. So many around me are into it and I hate it so much. I could go on and on but to cut a long story short I've lost a couple of best mates to it and my brother skips school because he's smoking it. He's got such a bright future but he's throwing it down the drain. I hate the BS videos I see about how great it is, its benefits and all that. Its just brainwashing the younger generation.

I'm not so sure about your moto, the weed is pretty innocent there.

But I do hear you on the other concerns, and agree. Drugs, and in particular marijuana carry little "consequence" from abuse. So yea it's difficult to convince a pot head they are not as "successful" as they could be without abusing drugs.

thing of it is...what's the problem again?

Oh yea abuse, that's the issue. Seems a separate issue from smoking weed. Isn't?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

thing of it is...what's the problem again?

Oh yea abuse, that's the issue. Seems a separate issue from smoking weed. Isn't?

How is drug abuse separate to the issue of drug use :uhh: ? I'm not saying their exactly the same but as they are intimately linked it would be damaging to consider one without the other.

 

[nitsuj]

How is drug abuse separate to the issue of drug use :uhh: ? I'm not saying their exactly the same but as they are intimately linked it would be damaging to consider one without the other.

gimme a break ryan, I could abuse bananas, carrots and or oranges. I think abuse is totally separate from drugs.

Unless you meant to put words in my mouth with "drug abuse separate to the issue of drug use". That's a bit of a truism. I said abuse is separate from smoking weed. They are not mutually inclusive.

My momma told me drug abuse is never about the drugs. In what sense do you think it is?

How is it not the emotions produced, and enjoyed enough to become less ambitious towards other (more?) meaningful goals? Unreasonably focusing on getting an emotional high. The drug itself is moot.

People don't become coke heads, because they like blowing coke. The like the high. The high is an emotion, apparently a great one, earned merely by snortin' some crap up the nose.I guess it's emotional abuse more so than drug abuse. Perhaps, legislators had the same mind set as you when drafting laws that can incriminate drug abusers.

Skydiving can result in death. It produces an emotional "high". Do you think that would be abuse of planes and parachutes?

The drug is merely the means to emotional abuse as I've described.

In this thread I've called it "cheating life".

 

[Ryan_m_b]

gimme a break ryan, I could abuse bananas, carrots and or oranges. I think abuse is totally separate from drugs.

Unless you meant to put words in my mouth with "drug abuse separate to the issue of drug use". That's a bit of a truism. I said abuse is separate from smoking weed. They are not mutually inclusive.

My momma told me drug abuse is never about the drugs. In what sense do you think it is?

How is it not the emotions produced, and enjoyed enough to become less ambitious towards other (more?) meaningful goals? Unreasonably focusing on getting an emotional high. The drug itself is moot.

People don't become coke heads, because they like blowing coke. The like the high. The high is an emotion, apparently a great one, earned merely by snortin' some crap up the nose.I guess it's emotional abuse more so than drug abuse. Perhaps, legislators had the same mind set as you when drafting laws that can incriminate drug abusers.

Skydiving can result in death. It produces an emotional "high". Do you think that would be abuse of planes and parachutes?

The drug is merely the means to emotional abuse as I've described.

In this thread I've called it "cheating life".

Firstly: calm down. Secondly with the exception of the clear physical dependency that a lot of drugs create you are partly right, people take them for enjoyment and escapism. But you can't deny that most drugs are easily and readily abused, far more so than fruit. To have a sensible and balanced discussion about drug policy you have to acknowledge that.

 

[Some Slacker]

Firstly: calm down. Secondly with the exception of the clear physical dependency that a lot of drugs create you are partly right, people take them for enjoyment and escapism.

We were talking about cannabis, not "a lot of drugs", mental dependency is all there is for pot, as in, wow, I like this, I can't wait to do this again!

But you can't deny that most drugs are easily and readily abused, far more so than fruit. To have a sensible and balanced discussion about drug policy you have to acknowledge that.

Yeah, he picked a bad example... fruit?!? why not say sugared fizzy drinks? chips? bacon cheeseburgers? None of these are drugs and I'm sure they get 'abused' in record numbers at least in the US.

I just want my smokable beer! I don't care, tax it (at some shop or whatever where you can buy it), regulate it (keep away from children, and FFS don't advertise it! I can't imagine what commercials would be like for northern lights or whatever! LOL!), find a way to find out who's high and just how high are they at THIS moment (I firmly believe that without this, this is a NO-GO, otherwise it returns to being illegal if you've smoked in the last 30ish days), and charge for the right to grow your own (some yearly fee in lieu of the tax you won't be paying (since the stuff grows like a weed) to keep up appearances that you are part of the tax system).

I really can't think of anything else at the moment, my drug addled mind isn't always my friend. Yes, drug addled... been an abuser since 1982. Not bragging, simply stating a fact. I know its abuse and I know I totally am. Doesn't change the fact that I have been gainfully employed for most of that time, unfortunately (for me) the last five years ain't been so good, but then again I haven't been abusing either, as I can't afford it.. heh. But therein lies part of the problem, I know myself well enough to know that if I can afford it, I will be right back at it, which limits the number of jobs available to me, and I'm not going to risk getting it put into record that I'm a user (abuser, whatever), so I tend to avoid the ones that do testing. (which seems to be most nowadays, hopefully the Pres will actually follow up on his statements from last week)

 

[Evo]

I really can't think of anything else at the moment, my drug addled mind isn't always my friend. Yes, drug addled... been an abuser since 1982. Not bragging, simply stating a fact. I know its abuse and I know I totally am. Doesn't change the fact that I have been gainfully employed for most of that time, unfortunately (for me) the last five years ain't been so good, but then again I haven't been abusing either, as I can't afford it.. heh. But therein lies part of the problem, I know myself well enough to know that if I can afford it, I will be right back at it, which limits the number of jobs available to me, and I'm not going to risk getting it put into record that I'm a user (abuser, whatever), so I tend to avoid the ones that do testing. (which seems to be most nowadays, hopefully the Pres will actually follow up on his statements from last week)

You really avoid good jobs so that you can continue smoking weed?

 

[Some Slacker]

You really avoid good jobs so that you can continue smoking weed?

I've had good jobs, they just weren't interested in weather I smoked weed or not, but yes I am choosy about who I will work for, for example, my father was a police officer for 20 years, I would never presume to apply for such a job as I don't consider myself a hypocrite, or a bus driver (which my sister does) these are simply not open to me, as I hold myself to higher (get it? higher (insert butthead type laugh)) standard. And I don't consider it avoiding a good job, I simply consider it avoiding jail time, just because I want to smoke my beer rather than drink it.

Straight people don't know, what your about.
They put you down and shut you out.
You gave to me, a new belief.
And soon the world will love you Sweet Leaf! -Black Sabbath

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Yeah, he picked a bad example... fruit?!? why not say sugared fizzy drinks? chips? bacon cheeseburgers? None of these are drugs and I'm sure they get 'abused' in record numbers at least in the US.

There have been and still are various arguments for tighter regulation and taxes on these as well.

 

[madness]

You really avoid good jobs so that you can continue smoking weed?

To be honest I would not like to work for any job that drug tested simply because it feels like an intrusion. I have certain principles and do not I should have to put up with certain things to be employed. Likewise I would refuse to work at a job that randomly breathalysed people every day - it seems demeaning to me.

From a slightly different angle, many people would not work for a job that would not allow alcohol use in their private lives. I don't think there would be such a stigma attached to refusing a job on this basis.

 

[nitsuj]

Firstly: calm down. Secondly with the exception of the clear physical dependency that a lot of drugs create you are partly right, people take them for enjoyment and escapism. But you can't deny that most drugs are easily and readily abused, far more so than fruit. To have a sensible and balanced discussion about drug policy you have to acknowledge that.

Firstly, that's assuming I'm excited by this discussion.

I'm more than partly right that people take drugs for the high. I am not sure why else someone would take drugs.

Of course fruit doesn't give people an emotional high, err I mean of course people don't abuse fruit like they do drugs.

My point with mentioning "Fruit abuse" is how easy it is to see fruit is not the issue in that abuse. I'm sure most people don't abuse fruit. I'm guessing it has happened.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

To be honest I would not like to work for any job that drug tested simply because it feels like an intrusion. I have certain principles and do not I should have to put up with certain things to be employed. Likewise I would refuse to work at a job that randomly breathalysed people every day - it seems demeaning to me.

And how many jobs actually require this? Aside from athletes I can't think of a career that requires mandatory drugs testing.

From a slightly different angle, many people would not work for a job that would not allow alcohol use in their private lives. I don't think there would be such a stigma attached to refusing a job on this basis.

Well it's a bit different because one is legal and one isn't. It isn't as simple as "social stigma".

 

[dcpo]

And how many jobs actually require this? Aside from athletes I can't think of a career that requires mandatory drugs testing.

There are a few. Some of my friends have been through such tests, though in all cases they were either working for intelligence services or for a firm being contracted by them.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And how many jobs actually require this? Aside from athletes I can't think of a career that requires mandatory drugs testing.

Here is the US, drug testing is extremely common.

 

[madness]

And how many jobs actually require this? Aside from athletes I can't think of a career that requires mandatory drugs testing.

It's not uncommon in the UK. I have a friend working for a large engineering firm who could technically be drug tested at any time.

Well it's a bit different because one is legal and one isn't. It isn't as simple as "social stigma".

We are talking about whether cannabis should be legal. Saying it's different from alcohol because it is illegal doesn't make sense here.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

It's not uncommon in the UK. I have a friend working for a large engineering firm who could technically be drug tested at any time.

If that's true it's still vanishly rare in the uk, I'm not even sure of its legality here. Either way I'm very skeptical that you've had to turn down man jobs because of drugs testing.

We are talking about whether cannabis should be legal. Saying it's different from alcohol because it is illegal doesn't make sense here.

Hardly. You were alluding to the fact that it's a problem with employment because it is a social stigma, I argue that it is because it is illegal that it is a problem.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Firstly, that's assuming I'm excited by this discussion.

Given the "gimme a break" drama it's fairly indicated.

I'm more than partly right that people take drugs for the high. I am not sure why else someone would take drugs.

Of course fruit doesn't give people an emotional high, err I mean of course people don't abuse fruit like they do drugs.

My point with mentioning "Fruit abuse" is how easy it is to see fruit is not the issue in that abuse. I'm sure most people don't abuse fruit. I'm guessing it has happened.

This is a total non-argument. When discussing whether or not something should be illegal or legal (and all points in between i.e. controlled, regulated, taxed etc) you have to take into account likelihood of abuse and severity of the consequences of abuse. For fruit both of those rank quite low, for various illegal drugs (and some legal ones) they both rank quite highly.

 

[madness]

If that's true it's still vanishly rare in the uk, I'm not even sure of its legality here. Either way I'm very skeptical that you've had to turn down man jobs because of drugs testing.

I haven't claimed to have turned down any jobs based on drugs testing. I simply said that I wouldn't like to take a job which tested for drugs out of principle.

Hardly. You were alluding to the fact that it's a problem with employment because it is a social stigma, I argue that it is because it is illegal that it is a problem.

I wasn't alluding to that at all. I was responding to Evo's distaste that someone might turn down a job on that basis with a comparison to alcohol. This is purely about people's attitude towards smoking pot as opposed to drinking alcohol.

In any case, you can't respond to a debate about whether something should be legal with "it is because it is illegal that it is a problem". The only reasonable way to interpret that statement in this context is as an argument for legalisation of the drug.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I wasn't alluding to that at all. I was responding to Evo's distaste that someone might turn down a job on that basis with a comparison to alcohol. This is purely about people's attitude towards smoking pot as opposed to drinking alcohol.

I find the idea of not taking a job because of alcohol just as distasteful.

In any case, you can't respond to a debate about whether something should be legal with "it is because it is illegal that it is a problem". The only reasonable way to interpret that statement in this context is as an argument for legalisation of the drug.

You're not reading my posts correctly. I suggest you back up, look at what you said, then look at what I've said. I'm not saying that it's a problem because it is illegal I'm saying that people don't view it as purely a social stigma.

If you're trying to guess my position on this subject clearly you've not read this thread. You might want to go back to the first page if you want to read my thoughts on this subject.

 

[madness]

I find the idea of not taking a job because of alcohol just as distasteful.

You're not reading my posts correctly. I suggest you back up, look at what you said, then look at what I've said.

Perhaps you should do the same with my posts. I said that the problem with the testing is the personal intrusion, in the same way that alcohol tests would be. It's not an issue with stopping drinking/smoking, it's the fact that you should be expected to and could be tested for it. I don't believe my employer should have any control over my private life, so long as I am performing well at work. If I am not performing well at work, they are free to let me go, but it has to be on that basis alone.

I'm not saying that it's a problem because it is illegal I'm saying that people don't view it as purely a social stigma.

You mean they view it partly as a legal stigma. In which case what I said still stands - this can only be interpreted as an argument for legalisation.

 

[GladScientist]

LEGALIZE DA HERB ITS GODS MIRACLE CURE! SMOKE DA REEFER ALL DAY

No but really, people do deserve the right to be able to make their own decisions.

 

[Evo]

No but really, people do deserve the right to be able to make their own decisions.

In society, not really, it has to be what the majority decides is acceptable. If what you do in private has no impact on society, I'd agree, but even what you do in private can impact society, so there can still be some societal responsibility for your private actions. (think illegal activities that involve violence/robbery/etc... in the bigger picture)

 

[GladScientist]

Of course one's actions can affect others, my post was a very short summary of my opinion on this matter. One could argue that any addiction (such as one to marijuana) could eventually lead to some 16 year old stealing your car stereo. However, such things are so unpredictable that I really don't think it's fair for them to be illegal because of it. A medication may save someone's life who later goes on a killing spree, but that's not really a problem for the medication.

But more importantly, and my strongest argument against the illegality of marijuana, is that such laws simply do not work. If a person is about to smoke for the first time, they will be taking many things into consideration (unless they're uneducated or an idiot), such as the health effects, potential mental effects, possibility for addiction, etc. The one thing that never crosses their mind is "what if a cop walks into my house right now and catches me?"

The perceived chance of being caught is zero, because they don't ever picture themselves doing something stupid enough to get caught.

 

[Evo]

I wasn't alluding to that at all. I was responding to Evo's distaste that someone might turn down a job on that basis with a comparison to alcohol. This is purely about people's attitude towards smoking pot as opposed to drinking alcohol

Excuse me, I said no such thing. I simply asked if you actually turned down jobs in favor of smoking pot. I made no judgement. I certainly did not mention alcohol.

Want to apologize for misinformation?

 

[madness]

Evo, I think you may have misunderstood my post. I didn't say you mentioned alcohol, I said that I mentioned it as a comparison to cannabis. Secondly, it wasn't me who claimed to have turned down jobs, it was someone else. I have never had any issue with smoking pot in my professional life. Your post came across as a negative judgement on someone turning down a job based on drug testing, but if you genuinely didn't mean it that way then it's my mistake.

I think you have overreacted a bit here. There was absolutely no offence intented.

 

[Travis_King]

I find the idea of not taking a job because of alcohol just as distasteful.

Well...I personally believe people have the right to choose where they work, and that they have the right to make decisions about their lives so as to maximize their happiness. If a person is offered a job, but must give up alcohol or marijuana in order to work there, then that person has every right to refuse, for whatever reason (but in this case if he believes that either substance brings him joy) without being looked down upon.

Now, sure, it's another matter if the guy (or gal) is living on the edge of poverty and needs to find a job to support his kids, but decides weed is better than diapers. But that has nothing to do with the argument really. That isn't about choosing weed over a potential job. That's about choosing a high over the wellfare of your children...

I think marijuana should be legal for many reasons. A major one is ecomonic. We, the US, spend millions and millions a year in policing, ticketing, court dates, fees, and the costs associated with keeping prisoners on a substance which poses no real threat to virtually anyone on its own.

Another is the fact that the only real, appreciable dangers that come from marijuana (money going to gangs, or even cartels / violent crimes related to it's sale / etc) stem directly from its illegality. Legalize, commoditize, and you take that away.

There are too many pro's to list. And I recognize that there would be cons (e.g. I imagine the number of teen burnouts would initially spike) But really it doesn't make any sense to treat marijuana the way that we, here in the US, do.

 

[nitsuj]

Given the "gimme a break" drama it's fairly indicated.

This is a total non-argument. When discussing whether or not something should be illegal or legal (and all points in between i.e. controlled, regulated, taxed etc) you have to take into account likelihood of abuse and severity of the consequences of abuse. For fruit both of those rank quite low, for various illegal drugs (and some legal ones) they both rank quite highly.

Sorry "Gimme a break" is a cliche now (i.e. "remarkable") I meant it literally, to give me a break (a pass) on the point you were making. I used to think "remarkable" meant really good!

Then your point is out of context. The context is some posters brother is skipping school due to his drug ABUSE.

The illegal/legal issue is near meaningless in that discussion of addressing the abuse.

 

[nitsuj]

In society, not really, it has to be what the majority decides is acceptable. If what you do in private has no impact on society, I'd agree, but even what you do in private can impact society, so there can still be some societal responsibility for your private actions. (think illegal activities that involve violence/robbery/etc... in the bigger picture)

In turn not their own decision.

"people do deserve the right to be able to make their own decisions"

Is pretty indisputable.

You added some stuff, such as extending the impact of the decision to all of society.

I think the poster, would appreciate there are laws that protect society from deviant individuals. And that the poster appreciates concepts such as "government regulation can create black markets".

Hmmmm, Evo, maybe your comment is better applied to government regulation. That sometimes the laws they create targeting one substance, impacts MANY AREAS of Society and possibly in a negative way. The BIG picture.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Sorry "Gimme a break" is a cliche now (i.e. "remarkable") I meant it literally, to give me a break (a pass) on the point you were making. I used to think "remarkable" meant really good!

Then your point is out of context. The context is some posters brother is skipping school due to his drug ABUSE.

The illegal/legal issue is near meaningless in that discussion of addressing the abuse.

I don't see how it was out of context nor meaningless, I've clarified my point. Abuse needs to be taken into account where the likelihood and/or severity of abuse are high.

In turn not their own decision.

"people do deserve the right to be able to make their own decisions"

Is pretty indisputable.

Actually I think it is disputable. "People do deserve the right to be able to make their own decisions where they can" is a better version (thinking primarily of mentally ill patients). Added with the clarification of "and their decision will be regulated in some manner if it impacts on others".

You added some stuff, such as extending the impact of the decision to all of society.

I think the poster, would appreciate there are laws that protect society from deviant individuals. And that the poster appreciates concepts such as "government regulation can create black markets".

Hmmmm, Evo, maybe your comment is better applied to government regulation. That sometimes the laws they create targeting one substance, impacts MANY AREAS of Society. The BIG picture.

Yes, that's why their the government! They're meant to make laws that impact many areas of society, the idea obviously being that the impact is as positive as possible whilst minimising the negative.

 

[nitsuj]

Were you not of the opinion that government regulation that causes more problems than it solves is a bad thing? i.e making marijuana possession illegal.Was American alcohol prohibition brought up in this thread?
people do deserve the right to be able to make their own decisions. "the idea obviously being that " they can.