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Lenin

  1. Mar 14, 2005 #1
    Nazism and the Cult of Lenin

    I'm just doing my history homework at the moment, Stalins seizure of power, and his claim to a county which he subjected to 80 years of dictatorial rule, fascinating.
    But then i thought before him was Lenin, a man who was so ruthless has 8,000 priests killed or executed in an attempt to close the Orthadox Churches. a man who killed more than hitler, starting a civil war so he could get more power.

    Now, how can some people wear a soviet badge, with the face of Lenin on and hold their head up high, or not get odd glances in the street, but a person who wears a swastika on their coat would most proabaly be beated to a pulp?

    has the cult of lenin indoctrinated our modern society so much so that we are blind to the facts?

    i know this isn't physics, but you guys are logical

    -Padford
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2005
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 14, 2005 #2
    I invoke Godwin's law. You automatically lose, Lenin wins.
     
  4. Mar 14, 2005 #3
    Ok, seriously, you seem to be getting a lot of facts mixed up, I am completely unaware of any 6000 priests getting killed and your comparison of Lenin to Hitler and stating that he 'started' the civil war is laughable.
     
  5. Mar 15, 2005 #4
    that's what i'm trying to point out, i bet you can tell me how many jews were killed by Hitler, and I bet you know how hitler died, do you know how Trotsky or even Lenin died? (by the way, it was 8000 priests,) i just want to know, if anyone can humor me and attempt to answer this question, how the Cult of Lenin is STILL affecting out lives today.
    how can you say Lenin did not start the civil war?! It was his very, well the Bolsevik's very seizure of power that led to the civil war, under his control. Hitler didn't invade Poland, but it was under his contol that his army did.
    How can the cult of a man 81 years dead last january be STILL affecting our lives, blinidng us to the truth?!
     
  6. Mar 15, 2005 #5
    Lenin isn't really affecting my life per se, but to each his own.
     
  7. Mar 15, 2005 #6

    selfAdjoint

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    Lenin died in bed, presumably of natural causes. If not it was Stalin's fault not Lenin's. Trotsy died of a climbing ax blow to the head, on Stalin's orders. The "civil war" you talk about was an attempt by the British, French and US to conquer the young Soviet state, plus some army mutinies. To say Lenin was responsible for this is like saying John Adams is responsible for Bunker Hill. And where is your reference on those priests? Did Lenin order it or was it just that some number of priests died in the troubles?
     
  8. Mar 15, 2005 #7
    The official figure is 6 million, but that was given by Herman Goering in his confession, the actual number could be anywhere below or above that. Estimates range as high as 10 million and as low as 1-2 (Jews only).
    Uhh.. Yeah, he shot himself and eva after poisoning his two dogs, then his body was burned by a loyal nazi before the russians ferretted him away.
    I would love to see a reference for this I've never heard anything about this.
    Is there an actual cult your refering to? Or is that just the name you've given anyone who wears a soviet badge or a picture of lenin on their clothes?
    Lenin didn't want a civil war, it was white russians and the upper class (supported by capitalist nations world wide) that invaded bolshevik controlled space.
    This doesn't make any sense, there was no one in paticular for Lenin to start a war with, it was a civil war between the Soviet state and those that opposed it's rule over russia. You can say that they provoked a war (which I will argue against too) but you can't honestly believe they started that war, they had nothing to gain from rebellion.
    Again, what cult?
    A lot of the people you see with Hammer and Sickles are just dumb teens who don't have the foggiest idea what it represents and just want to be rebellious, the other half I would associate with Nazi Punks in that they are driven by misunderstanding and irrational hate and choose the USSR as their power symbol (interesting how these groups always choose a defeated power as their power symbol, kind of self destructive).

    The Lenin/Che Geuvera fanatics however, are often more intelligent than those Hammer and Sickle fools (although there is a number of exceptions to both rules). The usually appreciate what Lenin and Che represented, not who they were or what they did. Which is rebellion against established norms (both world wide politically and within their society), among other things, depending on who you talk to.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2005
  9. Mar 16, 2005 #8
    The Cult of Lenin as it widley known, was built up by Stalin towards the end of Lenin's life. It caused lenin's brain on his death to be cut up too see what made him such an amaxinf revolutionary. The same cult drove lenin's body to be embalmed for over three quaters of a century, at last it's been laid to rest.

    Ok, my mistake, it was actually 1215 preists, and 28 bishops, 8,000 were killed in faoith resistance to satlin's liquidation of the Russian Orthadox church.
    In regards to the people who wear che t'shirts and soviet badges, i used to be one of them, merely because i didn't have a che shirt, and everyone else did, and when in berlin this soviet paraphanolia was on sale everywhere. but now, realising how much of an awful, evil and harsh this guy was, i have givien it al away. this cult of Lenin does exist, and it is the reason why people feel so stongly about it; it may not have affected everyone's lives, but it HAS made you think that lenin is a good guy, and let hitler, who killed just as many as lenin, is almost satan himself.

    By the way, Lenin oversaw the execution of the faith protestors, and ordered a daily report on the number of priests dead.
     
  10. Mar 16, 2005 #9
    For most of the world this "cult of Lenin" dosent matter, people world wide have learned what they have about him mostly via text books not written by Stalin.
    So many countries have had civil wars where so many good people have died. And yes some get more publicity then others. Its all just water under the bridge now. And this "cult" will have little or no effect on how people view that area of the world.
     
  11. Mar 16, 2005 #10

    russ_watters

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    THIS is probably what was being referred to:
    In any case, I too have noticed the "cult of Lenin" - even in this forum. In discussions of communism, Stalin is characterized as a murderous, evil dictator, but Lenin is characterized as a benevolent, loyal, scholarly follower of Marx. Except for the last part (follower of Marx), Lenin was every bit the murderous dicator that Stalin was. He just didn't last as long, so he didn't succeed in killing as many people as Stalin. But hey - a million here, a million there -- after a few million, what's the difference?

    Its difficult for me not to characterize the entire history of Soviet communism - even as directly related to Marx - as "evil".
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2005
  12. Mar 16, 2005 #11

    Ba

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    If by the Hitler you mean Lenin then I will point out that it wasn't under his control. Having done a report recently on the coming to power of the Bolsheviks I can tell you that in Poland during the Russian Civil War of the early 1920's was what was characterized as the Black Army, an anarchist type army that fought against both the Red Army (Bolsheviks) and the White Army (nationalists bieng supplied by the Allies). Lenin had little to do with the starting of the civil war, he was a great agitator but he was not in control of the October Revoloution. That was a recoil from the previous leader loosing control of some troops. At that time Lenin was one of three or four bolshevik leaders, the civil war is only attributed to him because he came out in power.

    On the other hand once he had the power he was ruthlessly trying to stablize the government and eliminate opposition. I personally never have thought him better than Stalin except more charismatic and perhaps intellectually as well.
     
  13. Mar 17, 2005 #12
    You are completely wrong. Hitler was a racist. He killed people like jews, blacks and the rest because he didn't like them or what ever. Lenin and Stalin killed their opposition based not on race but on opposition's threat to their power. Unlike Hitler's concentration camps, which were used to exterminate the Jews and what not, the Soviet labour camps were used to build the Soviet Union. And those that survived the labour camps in Soviet Union lived "happily ever after" just like the rest of Soviet Union and even received honorary medals from the government.
     
  14. Mar 17, 2005 #13
    :surprised , ok, well, Hitler was a racist; but I cannot believe you think that Lenin, yes! Lenin merely used the soviet labour camps to build up the union, a bit, which they did indeed do, again, a bit, but their here horrendously ineffective and ineffectual. Read "Gulag" Anna Applebaum, or any other gulag book, and you will realise that there were actually quotas of people that had to be arrested to fill the ever-expanding camps. This however is getting off the point.

    Ok, I shall admit that I was wrong about Lenin starting the Civil War himself, but the seizure of power was very, very unpopular, and it most defiantly is linked to the reaction that was the Civil War.

    If I may, well I’m going to anyway, I wish to break any facade of Lenin's, benevolence, and altruism etc.

    During the Civil War, he was at the top the Red Army, although basically founded by the great Trotsky; Lenin ran and ordered it. There were 'food brigades' that would go to the countryside to requisition grain fro, the Peasants, there are peasant accounts of people being beaten for holding back grain, stripped naked and whipped too. The grain requisites were mainly younger, more radical Bolsheviks, who damn well knew what they were doing, and were better off for it. This was part of the economic policy of the time; war communism, which, was, essentially communist.
    After the civil war came the camps, though they were used by the Rominov Dynasty previous to the Bolshevik rule, they were added to and extended on by Lenin, the man's body which was embalmed for over 75 years and hailed thought Soviet Russia, and indeed outside it.
    I think I need to address the issue of the racism; Lenin was obviously a racist, why else would he have (in 1935) banned all Muslims to go on the pilgrimage to Mecca, or steal Icons from the Russian Orthodox Church to fund the famine crisis of 1921/22. The man bred into the Russia Proletkult a sea of anti-semantic view, exploiting the malleable recruits to act as spreaders of the word, his word across Russia.

    -Padford
     
  15. Mar 17, 2005 #14
    Padford!!! Do you have somethig ageinst me???
     
  16. Mar 17, 2005 #15
    That is just nonsence. What are you getting at?
     
  17. Mar 17, 2005 #16

    russ_watters

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    Ok, so Hitler was a racist and murderer, Lenin was an ideologue and murderer, and Stalin was a nut and murderer. Can we leave it at that?
     
  18. Mar 17, 2005 #17
    The reason Lenin is loved and Stalin is not, is exactly that Lenin was not the evil personality that Stalin was. He was a devout Marxist, and did what he did for what he believed to be the greater good. I grew up in the former SU, people there were taught to love and respect Lenin. He was called the Father of the SU.

    Dont think that I am one of them, since it was way before my time, but do understand that I am in position to compare their legacies. One cannot compare him to Stalin and Hitler for killing certain people any more than one can compare a police officer to a mugger for shooting a person on the street.
     
  19. Mar 23, 2005 #18
    Well, it seems my post didn't post.
    I cannot recall why I wrote, but i know that Barbie, you understand the Cult Of Lenin, and that it is indeed affecting people still.
    well, food calls
    happy erm, holy week i guess
     
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