# LHC Physics and Beyond

1. Aug 26, 2008

### james77

The real joke would be if nothing were found after all the money that has been spent on this project. Total Anti-Climax! No Higgs-Boson particle, No MBH, No Extra Dimensions, No Dark Matter, No Dark Energy...This would be a real disaster! It's better and healthier for Science that's ultimately going to have any real importance and significance for our future to take certain risks despite what the detractors might say.

2. Aug 26, 2008

### ZapperZ

Staff Emeritus
Re: New LHC article with theory on MBH's...

I can say for certain that that is highly unlikely. I don't mean they'll find the Higgs, etc, but I am very certain that they won't find nothing. Even the Tevatron, with its lower energy, produced a WEALTH of discoveries beyond just finding the top quark. Even narrowing down the mass of the top to higher certainties would be a significant accomplishment, since that will reduce the uncertainties on several other phenomena. In fact, that would be one of the first thing they will do, to "recalibrate" their detectors by looking for the top, and other particles that were found or refined at the Tevatron and SLAC.

And keep in mind that proton-proton collision is simply ONE of the many capabilities that the LHC can do. It can also collide heavy ions, similar to what RHIC has done, and look at what has come out of that! So we will certainly find something, and I am certain that there'll be new physics here. It may not be what we were looking for or expected, but that's why physicists are doing this - to find something we aren't expecting.

Zz.

3. Aug 26, 2008

Staff Emeritus
Re: New LHC article with theory on MBH's...

Not possible. Apart from ZapperZ point, it's known that the SM is inconsistent. So something has to show up at LHC energies.

What risks? The LHC is not dangerous merely because some nutjob says it is.

4. Aug 26, 2008

### humanino

Re: New LHC article with theory on MBH's...

Sorry, where ? I mean, that can refer to so many things (Landau pole, fine tuning/hierarchy, neutrino masses...)

5. Aug 26, 2008

Staff Emeritus
Re: New LHC article with theory on MBH's...

WW elastic scattering - specifically, the longitudinal components of the W. This violates unitarity at 1 TeV or so, unless there is a Higgs exchange, which then restores unitarity by interfering destructively with the Z and photon exchange.

6. Aug 26, 2008

### humanino

Re: New LHC article with theory on MBH's...

Oh, waow ! Very good, indeed, from that we do need something that has not been observed, otherwise the theory does not make sense !

7. Aug 26, 2008

### arivero

Re: New LHC article with theory on MBH's...

Yep, this is the classic "LHC-non-loss" theorem. Now, problems can be:

1) it is there but low cross sections, so we do not observe it. Try to buy a Large Linear Accelerator for electrons and/or muons, and best luck.

2) it is not really there, ie the theory does not make sense.

8. Aug 26, 2008

Staff Emeritus
Re: New LHC article with theory on MBH's...

Maybe it's time for the mods to split this thread off.

A theory can be wrong for two reasons. It can be inconsistent with the data, or it can be inconsistent with itself. The Higgsless Standard Model has the second problem - it predicts a cross-section that violates unitarity, or in layman's terms, probabilities that exceed one. It's actually amazing that that's the only problem it has - the problem arises because it doesn't have complete multiplets of all the charged particles in the theory: a complex SU(2) doublet has four components, but the Higgsless Standard Model has only three. Usually this causes the theory to generate "anomalies", which are also nonsensical predictions of the theory. The Higgsless SM manages - almost by accident - to avoid these problems.

So, something has to happen. Arivero is right in that we might not see the something. Still, besides the direct search, the LHC can measure the strength of the WWWW coupling, which is essentially equivalent to measuring the cross-section of WW scattering. So even if there is an undetectable Higgs, we will be able to tell that because we can see its impact on this other process.

9. Aug 26, 2008

### arivero

Re: New LHC article with theory on MBH's...

The Hĺess SM (hmm, has it a better name?) has some other interesting hints. While the lack of anomalies points to GUT multiplets, the breaking of gauge invariance hints to strings or supergravity. This is because the limits $$M_{W,Z} \to 0$$ and $$M_{W,Z} \to \infty$$ restore, respectively, gauge invariance in SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) or in SU(3)xU(1). Which in turn corresponds, respectively, to Kaluza Klein theories in 7 or 5 extra dimensions, ie total dim 11 or 9. It is tempting to speculate that the mechanism allowing for mass for the gauge bosons lives in the intermediate dimension (but it is only a tempting speculation: it could also be jumping two dimensions in a single step).

I should give a thinking to the shape of unitarity on both limits. In the 9 dim Kaluza Klein, the SU(2) disappears so unitarity seems to be restored forcefully. In the 11 dim the W is massless, so what about its longitudinal component? Does it disappear, and then the source of the problem? But there is still the problem of chiral fermions in 11D... could the problems be related?

Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
10. Sep 11, 2008

### thharrimw

Re: Black hole in LHC?

I agree that making a black hole isn't likley but what is LHC's main reason for being made? I dont know much about QM so could you dum it down for me?

11. Sep 11, 2008

### Orion1

The Schwarzschild radius R_S of an (4+n)-dimensional black hole:
$$R_s = \frac{1}{\sqrt{\pi} M_p} \left[ \frac{M_{BH}}{M_p} \left( \frac{8 \Gamma\left( \frac{n+3}{2} \right)}{n+2} \right) \right] ^{\frac{1}{n+1}}$$

How do I transform this equation into Systeme International units?

Anyone here interested in examining Rossler's paper disputing Hawking Radiation?

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-ph/pdf/0106/0106295v1.pdf" [Broken]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole" [Broken]
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1844504&postcount=48"
http://www.wissensnavigator.ch/documents/OTTOROESSLERMINIBLACKHOLE.pdf" [Broken]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_R%C3%B6ssler" [Broken]

Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2017
12. Sep 11, 2008

### ZapperZ

Staff Emeritus
Re: Black hole in LHC?

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/26016

Zz.

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2017
13. Sep 12, 2008

### samalkhaiat

14. Sep 12, 2008

### K.J.Healey

Its in units of (1/eV) right now, or one over energy. So multiply it by (hc)

1/(eV) * (eV s) * ( m/s) = length units

EDIT : Unless its already in kg. Then theres some natural unit conversion...
Like multiply (1/mass in kg) by Sqrt[h/(c G)]
h=hbar
c=sspeed of light
G= grav const

Last edited: Sep 12, 2008
15. Sep 13, 2008

### Orion1

The Schwarzschild radius R_s of an (4+n)-dimensional black hole:
$$R_s = \frac{1}{\sqrt{\pi} M_p} \left[ \frac{M_{BH}}{M_p} \left( \frac{8 \Gamma\left(\frac{n+3}{2} \right)}{n+2} \right) \right] ^{\frac{1}{n+1}}$$

At the minimum dimensional boundary (n = 0, M_bh = M_p), this equation should reduce to the Schwarzschild radius.

The Schwarzschild radius R_s of an 4-dimensional black hole:
$$\boxed{R_s = \frac{4 \hbar c \Gamma \left( \frac{3}{2} \right)}{ \sqrt{\pi} E_p} = \frac{2 G M_p}{c^2} \; \; \; n = 0 \; \; \; M_{BH} = M_p}$$

$$\boxed{\Gamma \left( \frac{3}{2} \right) = \frac{\sqrt{\pi}}{2}}$$

The Schwarzschild radius R_s of an (4+n)-dimensional black hole in International System units:
$$\boxed{R_s = \sqrt{\frac{\hbar G}{\pi c^3}} \left[ \frac{E_{BH}}{E_p} \left( \frac{8 \Gamma\left(\frac{n+3}{2} \right)}{n+2} \right) \right] ^{\frac{1}{n+1}}}$$

$$\boxed{R_s = \frac{r_p}{\sqrt{\pi}} \left[ \frac{E_{BH}}{E_p} \left( \frac{8 \Gamma\left(\frac{n+3}{2} \right)}{n+2} \right) \right] ^{\frac{1}{n+1}}}$$

Given that the maximum LHC energy is E_bh = 14 Tev and the arbitrary maximum extra dimension number n = 10, the plot of Schwarzschild radius versus dimension number is displayed as attachment.

Reference:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-ph/pdf/0106/0106295v1.pdf" [Broken]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole" [Broken]
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1844504&postcount=48"
http://www.wissensnavigator.ch/documents/OTTOROESSLERMINIBLACKHOLE.pdf" [Broken]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_R%C3%B6ssler" [Broken]

#### Attached Files:

• ###### MBH01.JPG
File size:
9.6 KB
Views:
64
Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2017
16. Sep 13, 2008

### nottheone

It's unlikely it won't find anything. I don't think it will find dark matter though, I don't think dark matter exists. At least I think all the current theories of what it is are wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if there is another explanation for the effects we are attributing to dark matter. I would also give it a little less than even odds that it will find the Higgs. Even less likely extra dimensions. And just so I get at least one prediction right, I predict it won't destroy the planet.