Can a clock inside a box solve the mystery of Schroedinger's Cat?

[student34]

Can't we just put a human in the box, and do same thing except without the poison. Inside of the box, the human will either see the hammer smash a vial, he won't see the hammer smash the vial or he will feel like he saw both things happen.

The time t' starts when the hammer is expected to drop or not to when the observer opens the box. We put a clock inside of box and tell the subject to remember what happens during time t'.

Won't this at least rule out or conclude that he was in a superposition?

 

[Nugatory]

Won't this at least rule out or conclude that he was in a superposition?

We already know perfectly well that he won't be in a superposition of the sort that you're thinking about. Even Schrodinger wasn't trying to suggest otherwise - he proposed his thought experiment to expose a defect in the then-current understanding of quantum mechanics, namely that there was nothing in theory as it was understood early in the 20th century that explained the fact that the cat didn't end up in a superposition.

Further work with the mathematical underpinnings of quantum mechanics over the next few decades has largely solved this problem. It turns out that QM in fact predicts that the cat ends up either alive or dead and you find out which it is by opening the box and looking; this is no different from tossing a classical coin and having to look at it to see whether it is heads or tails.

You can Google for "quantum decoherence" (although I will caution you that the math is somewhat daunting) or you can give this https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465067867/?tag=pfamazon01-20 a try.

 

[student34]

Yeah, okay, that makes sense.

 

[Demystifier]

See also
http://arxiv.org/abs/1406.3221

 

[nikkkom]

Can't we just put a human in the box, and do same thing except without the poison. Inside of the box, the human will either see the hammer smash a vial, he won't see the hammer smash the vial or he will feel like he saw both things happen.

The time t' starts when the hammer is expected to drop or not to when the observer opens the box. We put a clock inside of box and tell the subject to remember what happens during time t'.

Won't this at least rule out or conclude that he was in a superposition?

Human will be in a superposition of seeing the hammer drop and not seeing hammer drop. He will never see it "half-drop".

Opening the box just entangles you with the human. Now you are in a superposition of hearing him saying "the hammer did drop" and hearing "no, it did not drop".

 

[bhobba]

Human will be in a superposition of seeing the hammer drop and not seeing hammer drop. He will never see it "half-drop"

Human beings and hammers have definite position so can never be in superposition of seeing the hammer drop and not drop.

The same with the cat - it can never be in a superposition of alive and dead - its constituent parts have definite position so can never be in a superposition of alive and dead eg a dead cats heart does not beat, it does not breathe etc.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Swamp Thing]

See also
http://arxiv.org/abs/1406.3221

Amazing that no one proposed this explanation before in all these decades of debate. Or did someone?

 

[nikkkom]

Human beings and hammers have definite position so can never be in superposition of seeing the hammer drop and not drop.

Quantum mechanics is experimentally proven. Superposition is demonstrated in experiments for objects built of hundreds of atoms. When these objects are in superposition, everything works as it should - components of superposition "don't know" about mutual existence, can't "feel" it. Why humans should be different and not be able to be in a superposition?

 

[Swamp Thing]

Why humans should be different and not be able to be in a superposition?

According to the paper in post #4, human beings can be in a superposition, but they can't experience or remember it afterwards. If they are perfectly "screened" to prevent them from perceiving which-path information, then you (the experimenter) will observe interference. If they are able to see (and therefore, remember) which path they took -- no interference!.

 

[nikkkom]

According to the paper in post #4, human beings can be in a superposition, but they can't experience or remember it afterwards.

Exactly my point.

 

[bhobba]

Quantum mechanics is experimentally proven. Superposition is demonstrated in experiments for objects built of hundreds of atoms. When these objects are in superposition, everything works as it should - components of superposition "don't know" about mutual existence, can't "feel" it. Why humans should be different and not be able to be in a superposition?

Well first you need to understand what superposition is. Its simply that pure states form a vector space. This means any state is in superposition and in innumerable multiple ways. Obviously this applies to human beings. What a human being can't be is in a superposition of position. The reason is due to the radial nature of interactions generally found in the world out there objects decohere to have a definite position. You can find the detail here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/3540357734/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Human beings by the fact they breathe, stand on things etc etc is interacting with the environment so has a definite position. It impossible, utterly impossible for human beings, cats etc etc to be in a superposition of position.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

Exactly my point.

If it says human beings can be in a superposition of position (which I doubt) its wrong - simple as that. Its impossible, utterly impossible, with 100% certainty, for a human being to be in a superposition of position. Of course since any state is a superposition of many many other states its always in superposition - but that is meaningless since objects having definite position at all times is pretty much what we mean by classical.

Thanks
Bill

 

[nikkkom]

Well first you need to understand what superposition is. Its simply that pure states form a vector space. This means any state is in superposition and in innumerable multiple ways. Obviously this applies to human beings. What a human being can't be is in a superposition of position. The reason is due to the radial nature of interactions generally found in the world out there objects decohere to have a definite position. You can find the detail here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/3540357734/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Human being by the fact they breathe, stand on things etc etc is interacting with the environment so has a definite position.

"Interaction with environment" entails having a bigger quantum system. You no longer can treat "human being" as an isolated system. The bigger quantum system can be in a superposition of states.

 

[bhobba]

"Interaction with environment" entails having a bigger quantum system. You no longer can treat "human being" as an isolated system. The bigger quantum system can be in a superposition of states.

A human being can't be an isolated system - they breath, need to stand on something, sweat evaporates etc etc. Its in the nature of human beings, cats etc etc and why they can never, ever be in a superposition of position.

Thanks
Bill

 

[nikkkom]

If it says human beings can be in a superposition of position (which I doubt) its wrong - simple as that. Its impossible, utterly impossible, with 100% certainty, for a human being to be in a superposition of position.

Essentially, you are saying that electrons can experience quantum tunneling. Protons can. Entire atoms can. C60 fullerene molecules can. But humans can't. That's nonsense.

 

[bhobba]

Essentially, you are saying that electrons can experience quantum tunneling. Protons can. Entire atoms can. C60 fullerene molecules can. But humans can't. That's nonsense.

I am saying nothing of the sort. I am saying a human being can't be an isolated system and because of that is decohered to have definite position.

Thanks
Bill

 

[nikkkom]

The experiment does not require a cat or human which is not interacting with anything. It requires a "box" which is not interacting with anything.

 

[bhobba]

The experiment does not require a cat or human which is not interacting with anything. It requires a "box" which is not interacting with anything.

Your point being? The human being, cat, whatever, interacts with things in the box so has definite position.

There is an issue with decoherence in that case, but it does not change the argument and needs a separate thread. Start one if you like so it can be explored - but it isn't germane to this.

Thanks
Bill

 

[nikkkom]

Your point being? The human being, cat, whatever, interacts with things in the box so has definite position.

The box as a whole can be in a superposition of states, with different positions of the cat (human) in those states. It's basics of quantum mechanics.

 

[Nugatory]

Essentially, you are saying that electrons can experience quantum tunneling. Protons can. Entire atoms can. C60 fullerene molecules can. But humans can't. That's nonsense.

We could put the discussion on firmer ground by asking:
1) How would you prepare a system consisting of a cat (and as much of its environment as is needed to keep it alive) in a coherent superposition of position?
2) Having done so, how long would the superposition last?

 

[bhobba]

The box as a whole can be in a superposition of states, with different positions of the cat (human) in those states. It's basics of quantum mechanics.

As Nugatory pointed out the detail of that would prove quite interesting. I am all ears.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Demystifier]

Amazing that no one proposed this explanation before in all these decades of debate. Or did someone?

As far as I am aware, the explanation presented in that paper has not been presented before. Yet, it is a straightforward application of standard principles of QM. In that sense it does not contain any ideas that would be substantially new or controversial.