How can we quickly locate an avalanche victim using technical tools?

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  • Thread starter hagopbul
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In summary: I am not desperate.In summary, there is news of a climber being caught in an avalanche on 5000 meters. If we know the origin point of the avalanche and the point of the camp and the end point of the avalanche, we could narrow the search for the victim. Dogs might be able to help find him, or if they have an emergency beacon, they might be able to narrow the search. However, even with this information, it is difficult to rapidly locate the victim. If we can provide the values of those variables, someone could simulate the avalanche and narrow down the search for the victim.
  • #1
hagopbul
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TL;DR Summary
Using classical methods to locate an avalanche victim
Hello all:

Good day

There is news of trishul climbing incident , where the climber was victim of avalanche on a 5000 m , if we know the origin point of the avalanche and the point of the camp and the end point of the avalanche how could we locate the possible location, of the victim ,?
 
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  • #2
Dogs maybe. Or if they have an emergency beacon on them, you might be able to narrow the search.

What have you found in your Google search so far?
 
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  • #3
In some places "transceivers" are mandatory for traveling in avalanche prone areas. The main tool for finding a victim is a probe, which is just a long stick you can poke into the snow.
 
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  • #4
The victim might get stuck on some object in the ground. So his possible locations begin at his initial location and end at the leading edge of the avalanche. That is too big an area to be much help in rapid location.
 
  • #5
Locate my phone like app?
 
  • #6
The victim is Peter wittek
I was thinking of simulation of his body movement when he is suprised by the avalanche that would narrow things down maybe
 
  • #7
I believe an avalanche represents turbulent flow of a Non Newtonian fluid and therefore a challenge to model and quite dependent on temperature and humidity. Other than general conclusions like "the victim will be below her starting point in a some vague cone of probability" I think there is not much predictive work to be done. Please correct me if I am overstating this...
 
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  • #8
hutchphd said:
I believe an avalanche represents turbulent flow of a Non Newtonian fluid and therefore a challenge to model and quite dependent on temperature and humidity. Other than general conclusions like "the victim will be below her starting point in a some vague cone of probability" I think there is not much predictive work to be done. Please correct me if I am overstating this...

But even with this con ,wouldn't that help a little ? Instead of simulating the avalanche we simulate his body movement wouldn't that narrow things down a little ?

Best
Hagop
 
  • #9
Paul Colby said:
Locate my phone like app?
Couldn't use that method , it is in the hemalaya 5000 m

We could use GSM detectors but I am not sure if that would help I don't know if the signal are able to penetrate if we considered he is under the ground . And don't know if the phone is still on

If he is above the ground infrared will be enough to find him

Any other ideas

Best
H
 
  • #10
I think there are unknowables (ground features, snow inhomogeneity,..) that would completely dominate the result. But:
  1. I have not done the calculation
  2. am not an expert in snow
  3. do not think it a foolish notion!
 
  • #11
Thank you
If we can provide the values of that variables, who can simulate it ?
 
  • #12
PeroK said:
In some places "transceivers" are mandatory for traveling in avalanche prone areas. The main tool for finding a victim is a probe, which is just a long stick you can poke into the snow.

Some say he don't have one on him
 
  • #13
Snow is pure water and low loss to RF. GPS should work fine for 5000m. WiFi sniffer (directional antenna) could be used to sniff GPS location of the phone. Once located get some shovels and cadaver dogs. Problem solved.

[edit] so I assume this was a rhetorical question and you're not desperately trying to find someone real time. If it isn't then well, PF is quick but not that quick.
 
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  • #14
Paul Colby said:
Snow is pure water and low loss to RF. GPS should work fine for 5000m. WiFi sniffer (directional antenna) could be used to sniff GPS location of the phone. Once located get some shovels and cadaver dogs. Problem solved.

Here's a review of cellphone apps for avalanche rescue.

https://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/avalanche-search-and-rescue-apps
 
  • #15
Paul Colby said:
If it isn't then well, PF is quick but not that quick.

This happened Sunday. It's Friday.
 
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  • #17
Vanadium 50 said:
This happened Sunday. It's Friday.
Then it's unlikely we'll be able to write an app, assemble the high gain Yagi, Get the app on the app store, go back in time and advertise the app and hope the effected people buy it.
 
  • #18
Paul Colby said:
Snow is pure water and low loss to RF. GPS should work fine for 5000m. WiFi sniffer (directional antenna) could be used to sniff GPS location of the phone. Once located get some shovels and cadaver dogs. Problem solved.

[edit] so I assume this was a rhetorical question and you're not desperately trying to find someone real time. If it isn't then well, PF is quick but not that quick.

Yes I and others are trying to find him
 
  • #19
hagopbul said:
But even with this con ,wouldn't that help a little ? Instead of simulating the avalanche we simulate his body movement wouldn't that narrow things down a little ?
Not really, no. Avalanches are extremely chaotic, and there is no way to predict with any sort of accuracy where a person ended-up in one.
 
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  • #20
hagopbul said:
Yes I and others are trying to find him
Unfortunately, avalanche victims typically are only able to survive for a few minutes. I'm pretty sure that this is a recovery operation now, and not a rescue mission. Sorry.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962062
 
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  • #21
His friends survived , but he is no were to be found , that why they have some hope ,I don't know if he is under the ice or wondering in the region lost between the mountains.
 
  • #22
Can we use infrared detectors , to locate him if he is under the Ice ?
 
  • #23
hagopbul said:
Can we use infrared detectors , to locate him if he is under the Ice ?

After 6 days of being under the ice, I am afraid he's at the same temperature of as the ice. As berkeman says, at this point it is a recovery operation.
 
  • #24
I came up with the following ideas :

Gpr ground penetrating radar
Sonar
Cellphone ping
Infrared
NFC if it is passive I am not sure if NFC can be used as RFID
X-ray

What do you think
If this efforts are realistic in recovering him or rescuing him
That will be great for future rescue missions

Best
Hagop
 
  • #25
hagopbul said:
I came up with the following ideas :

Gpr ground penetrating radar
Sonar
Cellphone ping
Infrared
NFC if it is passive I am not sure if NFC can be used as RFID
X-ray

What do you think
If this efforts are realistic in recovering him or rescuing him
That will be great for future rescue missions

Best
Hagop
This isn't a physics question. This is a question for experienced avalanche search and rescue teams. See for example the advice here:

https://www.alpineskiclub.org.uk/safety/search-and-rescue/
 
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  • #26
PeroK said:
This isn't a physics question. This is a question for experienced avalanche search and rescue teams. See for example the advice here:

I know we are not the ones doing the search there is search team on the ground , we are coming up with technical ideas to be fast deployed to help locate him , for example the cell phone , or the cell phone NFC
 

1. How do I find an avalanche victim?

Locating an avalanche victim can be a challenging task, but there are a few key steps you can follow to increase your chances of finding them. First, use a beacon or transceiver to send out a signal and listen for a response. If you receive a response, follow the signal until you reach the victim. If you do not have a beacon, use a probe to search for the victim under the snow. Once you have located them, use a shovel to dig them out as quickly as possible.

2. What should I do if I am the first person to reach an avalanche victim?

If you are the first person to reach an avalanche victim, stay calm and assess the situation. Check the victim's airway, breathing, and pulse. If necessary, perform CPR or rescue breathing. If the victim is conscious, ask them if they are injured and if they can move. If they are unable to move, try to keep them warm and protected from the elements until help arrives.

3. How long do I have to find an avalanche victim before it becomes too late?

The amount of time you have to find an avalanche victim before it becomes too late varies depending on the circumstances. Generally, the first 15 minutes are the most critical, as the victim's chances of survival decrease significantly after that. However, the victim's chances of survival also depend on their location, injuries, and access to air. It is essential to act quickly and efficiently to increase the victim's chances of survival.

4. What equipment do I need to locate an avalanche victim?

The most important equipment for locating an avalanche victim is a beacon or transceiver. This device sends out a signal that can be picked up by other beacons, allowing you to pinpoint the victim's location. A probe is also essential for searching under the snow for the victim. Additionally, a shovel is necessary for digging the victim out once they have been located. It is crucial to always carry these items with you when traveling in avalanche-prone areas.

5. What are some precautions I can take to avoid becoming an avalanche victim myself?

The best way to avoid becoming an avalanche victim is to educate yourself on avalanche safety and always be prepared. This includes checking avalanche forecasts before heading out, traveling with a partner, and carrying essential safety equipment such as a beacon, probe, and shovel. It is also crucial to pay attention to warning signs and avoid traveling in high-risk areas. Taking an avalanche safety course can also greatly reduce your chances of becoming a victim.

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