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Logging and Wiki.

  1. Jun 15, 2009 #1

    turbo

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    Maine used to be home to great forests of white pine, and in fact, in Colonial times, the King's foresters would blaze the straightest and best of them for use as masts, etc for the British Navy, and heaven help anybody who cut one down, even on their own property. In the Bangor town planning office, there is a huge photographic mural shot from the Brewer side of the Penobscot river toward the Bangor side. The whole scene is full of sawmills, docks full of lumber, and ships, ships, ships. You could cross from one town to the other just by walking or jumping from ship to ship. Since this was in the days of large-plate photography, I'm assuming it was in the late 1800's.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangor,_Maine
     
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  3. Jun 15, 2009 #2
  4. Jun 15, 2009 #3

    turbo

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    Re: End of analog TV in US

    I read the Wiki entry, and it seemed to be quite accurate. But if you want you can look here instead.

    http://www.bangormetro.com/images/Lumber.pdf
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  5. Jun 15, 2009 #4
    Re: End of analog TV in US

    It is constantly being drilled into me that wikipedia links are worthless. Just they way I've been taught. I agree they can be quite accurate and in some cases have good content, but as they are created by, well, anyone and not always verifed/referenced you can only take the articles at face value and as such they are not substantial enough to justify an argument.

    JasonRoxt, I attempt to use peer reviewed journals / works from verifiable/trustworthy sources. Not Wikipedia. Wikipedia allows anyone to create/update articles.
     
  6. Jun 15, 2009 #5

    JasonRox

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    Re: End of analog TV in US

    Ok, say I wanted to know something simple like the demographics of a city, and maybe some history that might explain why it's mainly white or why there is a small percentage of natives (or anything else for that matter). As well, I want to know the population density too because I'm in that curious mood. Also, I'd like to know about some of the recent projects the city is going through. Sometimes a city website works, but every city website is different. Most city websites are not helpful and most don't include that much information (I'm talking from small town to big city). Wikipedia has a set format for every city.

    Without going to wikipedia... how do you go about searching for this information? List the steps.

    I'll tell you... 2 minutes to look at wikipedia will be much faster and probably even more accurate. And if you're concerned, you can easily find other sources using wikipedia by giving names of people, buildings and dates which makes it easy to search and look for other references.
     
  7. Jun 15, 2009 #6

    Borek

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    Re: End of analog TV in US

    Every source have to be taken with a grain of salt.

    There is information and information. I would not use wiki as a source of information about correct drug doses, but I have no problem with checking there what the US population is, or what is the area of Australia.

    I have a Polish Encyclopedia in 30 volumes here, published in the last few years by a well established publishing house, with a long list of professors that were consulting in their areas of expertise. Wiki has usually more information and covers more subjects. Sometimes to be sure I am comparing both sources - so far I have never found serious inaccuracies in wiki. And when I see something is wrong I am correcting it. Editablity is not an obstacle, it is an advantage.

    Every time and in every case? It is a waste of time.

    As signalled above - that's not a problem. Quite the opposite. How long before any printed sources will list David Carradine as dead?

    Edit: I see JasonRox posted something similar while I was composing
     
  8. Jun 15, 2009 #7
    Re: End of analog TV in US

    For the demographics of a city, say London, I would initially go to the census data provided free by the government. The census data would also give you poplulation density, you simply have to go to a site which provides the graphs based on the census data. You can also get the ethnic data from there too.
    In terms of history there are a number of places to look for it. But for history "explaining why it's mainly white", a quick google provides a mass of links from respectable sources.
    Again, recent projects in the city, a quick google would give you some good (and diverse) information on various projects.

    Firstly, by only looking at wikipedia you are relying solely on what someone else has written and that information may not be complete or correct.
    Secondly, as I said before. When wikipedia is referenced and the information can be verified it can be useful, but unless it is referenced you have no guarantee what is written is fact. It becomes third party information, it isn't primary as the source material and comes from another person (possibly with their views) and as such is not secondary.

    I have nothing against a quick glance at wikipedia as in your example above, it would serve its purpose when it comes to a bit of reading. However, if I required information to use and cite, it would be nowhere near substantial enough, I would have to go out and research the material properly. In this forum, people making claims should substantiate them with good, solid links to primary or at least secondary data sources (properly referenced to source materials).

    I make a claim, I give a link to wikipedia to back it up, that wikipedia link could have been altered by myself so that it 'agrees' with my claim.
     
  9. Jun 15, 2009 #8

    JasonRox

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    Re: End of analog TV in US

    This brings me to my next point.

    For just looking up casual information because you want to casually learn things, wikipedia is perfect. Gives you a lot for just one webpage as opposed to going through all the things you said. Yes, it's nothing but it's a lot if all you care about it to casually learn things and read articles and things. If you get more interested, you search for it in the fashion you described.

    When I plan my trips, I use wikipedia first and I branch off from there.

    It all comes down to realizing you're not an expert by reading an wikipedia file. When I plan a trip, I'm just interested in population size, historical things I might want to see, weather, and such. wikipedia gives me that in one click and the format is always the same. If I want to know more, I do exactly as you did... simply seach more. Easy as that.

    I bet you experts use wikipedia, but obviously don't source it. Yes, even my math profs I bet use wikipedia. Why not?
     
  10. Jun 15, 2009 #9
    Re: End of analog TV in US

    Because after reading it there, if it isn't referenced then they have to find the source for what they have just read, if it even exists.

    I have no problem with checking stuff up on there when I need to find something out. But when you are trying to substantiate a claim you should give a propper source, like you would if you were handing a paper to your maths professor.
     
  11. Jun 15, 2009 #10

    Evo

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    Re: End of analog TV in US

    We do not approve of the use of Wikipedia as a validation of information for exactly the reasons that jared cited. Wiki links used as a reference in GD are acceptable as long as they are not used as "proof" of one's point.
     
  12. Jun 15, 2009 #11

    JasonRox

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    Re: End of analog TV in US

    Exactly why it's acceptable in GD. As I said, perfect for casual information.
     
  13. Jun 15, 2009 #12
    Re: End of analog TV in US

    And turbo used the wiki link to prove his point that Maine was important in logging, when Integral said it wasn't.
     
  14. Jun 15, 2009 #13

    turbo

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    Re: End of analog TV in US

    Are you kidding? Maine was THE US locus for logging and ship-building in the 1800s for a very long time. The Wiki article was not used to "prove a point", but to elaborate on knowledge that is well-known and accepted here. If you don't like the article, then repudiate it, but as I said ('way back there!!!! you can find the post) I reviewed the article, found it to be factually accurate, and linked it. If you want to disparage everybody who posts Wiki links for substantiation of casual facts, I suggest that you prepare for boarding. You can't moderate that forum, nor can anyone with even a very deep general education.
     
  15. Jun 15, 2009 #14
    Re: End of analog TV in US

    Integral didn't know / agree with that. You gave the wiki article as evidence for it. Only calling that one as I see it. I'm not disputing whether it was or not.
     
  16. Jun 15, 2009 #15
    Re: End of analog TV in US

    Enough is enough, If you have a problem with wiki start your own thread on it.. Otherwise it appears you are merely involved in some oblique form of self aggrandizement.
     
  17. Jun 17, 2009 #16

    Integral

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    I have separated this entire mess from the DTV thread, this is all a distraction I started. Sorry.

    Now for some more discussion on logging. Reading my first post, as quoted by Turbo, clearly I have some knowledge of Maine logging. Seems that I was dead on. Yes, Maine was the logging capitol of the country, in 1820. Was that minor detail even hinted at in Turbo's first post? No, he was speaking in first person current language. Come on Turbo, you must realize that is misleading. They are still logging in Maine, but like here in Oregon it is mostly 2nd growth. If you have seen any of the Axemen shows, those are trees being cut out of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tillamook_Burn" [Broken] (in the late 1930's massive forest fires burned 100's of thousands of acres of massive old growth timber), the 2nd growth is now up to 10" to 12" in diameter, mere sticks compared to what burned.

    Since Oregon and PNW in general was not settled by Europeans / Americans until the 1840's it seems obvious that there was no logging industry here in the 1800s. The next problem was the massive size of the trees. It was not until the 1920's that we began to develop the technology to cut and move a old growth Douglas Fir. They were commonly 6' to 8' in diameter and 200' tall. They stayed that full diameter for 50' to 100'. The bucksaw/ springboard technology was inadequate for cutting these monsters. Then once you had one down you had to move it, again oxen just could not cut it. They had to build railroads into the woods to move the logs out. It was not until the 1950's when chainsaw technology was developed that we began to cut in earnest. Even then the saw mills were portable and moved to the logs. Note that chainsaws were developed here in Oregon just so the trees could be cut and bucked.

    To close, I am not ignorant of the logging industry in Maine, in the Navy a very good friend of mine was a Mainiac, we had many discussion about logging. So I am and have been aware of the logging industry in Maine. I really think, Turbo, when you make a reference to ancient history you should note it.

    Where I was born , http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/county/cpdouglashome.html"

    Note that I used a Wiki link, much like Turbo did, for informational purposes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  18. Jun 18, 2009 #17

    turbo

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    My initial reference was worded to indicate that Maine's ascendency in lumber was in the past. (Even today though, Maine is a pretty big producer of pulp and paper, and is the most forested state in the country as a percentage of area.)
    After you took exception to that, I referenced the Maine timber industry from colonial times (Maine was the wild part of Massachusetts back then) until at least the late 1800s, when that photographic mural was shot. If you will search on Bangor and lumber, you will see that the volume of lumber shipped out of that city peaked in 1872. I was certainly not trying to mislead anybody, and I took pains not to appear to be speaking in "first person current language."
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  19. Jun 18, 2009 #18

    Integral

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    That agrees with what I know. Logging did not become a big economic factor in the PNW until the early/mid 20th century, due to technology and population issues. I believe that the industry moved west to Wisconsin and Minnesota after they had finished the rape of Maine and the NE. That is were the Paul Bunyan legends come from.

    I grew up in http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/county/cpdouglashome.html" which in the 50s proclaimed itself Timber Capital of the world so was surprised to see your claim.

    Currently, I think the pine forests of the SE would lay claim to the timber capital. They get a phenomenal growth rate and the land is flat therefore amenable to mechanization. Flat is not a description of either Maine or Oregon.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  20. Jun 18, 2009 #19

    turbo

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    Southern yellow pine grows incredibly fast, and it is the basis for for probably 90% of the pressure-treated lumber sold in our neck of the woods. We still have a logging industry in Maine, but the saw-logs generally go to Canada to be processed. Most of the stuff cut around here now feeds pulp and paper mills, though the bad economy has put a damper on that. The remainder of the trees cut here generally go to stud mills, though all but one of the largest ones have shut down due to poor demand for building materials for housing.

    The big sawmill in Moose River has stayed open at a reduced capacity because the owner wants to retain what market share that he can, and he doesn't want to lose his trained work-force. That place is so remote, that if he shut it down, the workers would likely all have to move to find some kind of work and it might be really hard to get them back if the economy up-ticks. He's taking losses now as an investment in his future.

    If you look at the history of logging in Maine, you'll see that it was predicated on the existence of large rivers like the Penobscot. There was no other practical way to get logs from the forest to the downriver towns where saw-mills sprang up. By the 1920's log-driving had given way to floating 4' pulpwood downriver, and the rivers were dammed by hydro-electric companies, who installed sluices and spillways that could accommodate the smaller wood. Sometime after I got into college, even that river-transport stopped, so the "navigable" waters were actually navigable once again.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  21. Jun 18, 2009 #20

    Integral

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    I have been looking for some numbers on just how much lumber has come out of Oregon. From http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/26728" it appears that Oregon produced just short of 10million Bdft a year through the 50's and 60's.

    Currently they are cutting about 2million bdft a year.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
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