Is God bound by logic or is God above all laws, even that of logic?

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In summary: God couldn't be illogical, it would still be within his power. Basically, if God could do something, then it's within his power to do.
  • #1
Jikx
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A very short point..

If God is all powerful beyond belief, then it would be possible that God can be illogical and still exist, as God is not bound by any laws, not even that of logic.

What do you guys think?
 
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  • #2
If God is all powerful and created the universe he also created the laws by which it behaves.
This would include the laws of logic and mathematics as well as the physical laws.
If God created the laws of logic he himself would then be logical.
Why then would a logical entity create and then break his own laws?

In my opinion God is logical, reasoning and natural. There is no reason, logical or otherwise for God to be illogical. The short coming is ours, our logic and understanding that make it appear illogical.
 
  • #3
By definition, there are no limits on an omnipotent being's power.
 
  • #4
Jikx said:
A very short point..

If God is all powerful beyond belief, then it would be possible that God can be illogical and still exist, as God is not bound by any laws, not even that of logic.

What do you guys think?
Well the problem is that you are trying to apply regular standards of humanity to God. You have to understand the unique power of this deity, which does not allow itself to be given human-like qualities.

If God is perfect, he is perfect in every good aspect known to man, as well as others not known by man.
 
  • #5
damn... so i suppose it all boils down to this; what is perfection.

maybe the world we live in is heaven :eek:
 
  • #6
The question is not about humanity or perfection. "God", as you have here defined the term, is being mistaken for other definitions to which the term "God" is applied. This is why I try to avoid capitalizing the term "God", but I understand, it is a matter of respect for some.

Your definition: God's power is unlimited.
Can logic limit God's power? No. Read your definition.
Can people limit God's power? No. Read your definition.

Can God limit God's power? Well, now you have an interesting question. If you say yes, "God can limit God's power" then you are using logic to limit God's power. Can you limit God's power? No. Can logic limit God's power? No. So you cannot say yes.
If you say no, "God cannot limit God's power" then you are using logic to limit God's power. Can you limit God's power? No. Can logic limit God's power? No.
So you cannot say no.
You can neither say yes nor say no.
I will have to check with someone more comfortable with these concepts, but I believe the question "Can God limit God's power?" is undecidable by your definition.
Did you follow that? I will find a someone to check me. I just learned about decidability yesterday :biggrin:
 
  • #7
Jikx said:
damn... so i suppose it all boils down to this; what is perfection.

maybe the world we live in is heaven :eek:
Quite impossible. If we were already in heaven, we would already been perfect (perfect humans that is). If that were true, we would nothing to strive for in life. We might as well be automata.
 
  • #8
Can God contradict himself

Honestrosewater, you make an good point, but your argument is very much like the question can God make a stone so big that even he can't lift it. The thing you must realize is what your doing is playing with words to prove God doesn't exist, your trying to contradict him. Well simply put if God is perfect, then what ever logic you have comes from him so then what would appear illogical about God would be your lack of perfect logic to comprehend him, hence the mystery of God.

Then arises another question, is God perfect, and why?
 
  • #9
God is beyond logic. God makes laws for us to abide by. I know this may sound a little "brainwashed" but God is perfect. Perfect to the extent of being beyond human understanding, which is why it's been around for as long as time. It's a questoin as old as time and will continue to be so.
 
  • #10
Obviously no poster has understood what I have said. Nothing I've said proves or disproves the existence of anything.
Your personal concept of what the term God means is not relevant here; Jikx's question is not about your personal concept of God. Jikx asked a question about omnipotent beings and logic.
This is not the place for preaching about your personal concept of God.
 
Last edited:
  • #11
Answering first post

God can't be perfect and be illogical cause being illogical is a mistake, and God being perfect wouldn't make mistakes.
 
  • #12
What if we think of what it means to be omnipotent. If omnipotent means having everything subject to your will/power, then even if the omnipotent being couldn't do something, it would still be within the realm of the omnipotent being's powers. I guess what I mean is being omnipotent is being in a position of control above everything/one else in that situation.

Omni = all, potent = powerful. What if it doesn't mean having every power imaginable, but being powerful in all ways that it is possible in a situation.
Say for example, you are writing an essay and you, being the author, have total control over what goes into the essay. Yes, you are limited in where you can take the essay, but you are still unlimited in where you take it given your position.

Hope that isn't too crazy.
BTW, anyone here read Lucretius' On the Nature of Things
 
  • #13
I guess on that vein, is an omnipotent being a being at all or a state? Does it have an ego that can be limited? I once had a discussion where a friend concluded that God is a verb rather than a noun. God is to be in a state of perfection (how you define that is anyone's guess).
 
  • #14
Jikx said:
A very short point..

If God is all powerful beyond belief, then it would be possible that God can be illogical and still exist, as God is not bound by any laws, not even that of logic.

What do you guys think?

I guess no one can rule out any possibile statement concerning God. As honestrosewater pointed out using logic to describe an allpowerfull god raises some funny issues (I personally like "can God create a rock that he cannot lift himself") so therefore If an omnipotent god would exist she would certainly not be logical to our standards.
 
  • #15
It seems like you people are trying to find a contradiction in God, God in omnipotent meaning perfect, perfection can't be limited by situations or else he wouldn't be perfect.
 
  • #16
If it sounds like I'm being unfair, let me first clarify: My arguments are based on four things which I think are relevant to this discussion: 1) Jikx's original question, 2) the definition of omnipotence, 3) the rules of logic and 4) the rules of PF.

AiA,
but Jikx didn't define God as being perfect. Unless you can argue that perfection follows from omnipotence, talking about perfection is off-topic. Feel free to make that argument (ex. an omnipotent being could make itself perfect) or start another thread about perfect beings. :smile:

Sho'Nuff,
Assuming that all definitions of "god" fall into the field of metaphysics, you may be right. You may be interested in this thread (https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=54314) which asks why all metaphysical questions are undecidable.

0TheSwerve0,
Interesting. What about the situation of defining "omnipotent"? And the situation of determining the options in any and all situations?
 
  • #17
WOW long one ... but looks like fun

*starts reading*
 
  • #18
Your making this too dificult

First off, metaphysical questions can be answered, secondly, all powerful means if all powerful is limited then its no longer all powerful, its somewhat powerful, almost all powerful, but not all powerful. And by being illogical, it becomes no longer all powerful cause it made a mistake cause logic is right then illogic must be (this shouldn't be hard to figure out) wrong, then by an all powerful being being wrong it no longer is all powerful.
 
  • #19
AiA said:
It seems like you people are trying to find a contradiction in God, God in omnipotent meaning perfect, perfection can't be limited by situations or else he wouldn't be perfect.

Omnipotent doesn't mean perfect. Saying that an omnipotent being must be perfect is limiting the power of an omnipotent being. An omnipotent being can do or not do whatever it wants, by definition.
Logic cannot say whether or not an omnipotent being can limit itself. The question is logically undecidable.
 
  • #20
AiA said:
First off, metaphysical questions can be answered, .

yes But the answer is neither true nor false

AiA said:
secondly, all powerful means if all powerful is limited then its no longer all powerful, its somewhat powerful, almost all powerful, but not all powerful.

So therefore also not limited by logic

AiA said:
And by being illogical, it becomes no longer all powerful cause it made a mistake cause logic is right then illogic must be (this shouldn't be hard to figure out) wrong, then by an all powerful being being wrong it no longer is all powerful.

:cry:
 
  • #21
Can God create a rock so heavy that he himself can not lift it?

- An omnipotent being can do anything. So, yes, he can create that rock, because if he couldn't, he would not be omnipotent.

- But then he is not omnipotent, because there is a creature that he can not lift.

- You right... then answer is: "No, God can not create that rock".

- But an omnipotent being can create anything, so if he can't create that rock, he is not omnipotent.

- Your right... then answer is "Yes, He can create it"...

Ad infinitum...

All is a game of words for trying to use a senseless word ("omcnipotent").
 
  • #22
If one is confined to logic then yes, omnipotent would be a senseless word
 
  • #23
honestrosewater said:
0TheSwerve0,
Interesting. What about the situation of defining "omnipotent"? And the situation of determining the options in any and all situations?

Can you explain a bit more on your questions please?
 
  • #24
"Can God create a rock so big even he can't lift it?", this is as I explained before an attempt in finding a contradiction in God, but what you must realize is that you can't ask this question, cause if you asked God this, as you know any answer he gives would be a contradiction of his omnipotents. asking this question goes against God's nature, cause God would never attempt to lift a rock to prove he's more powerful than the rock nor would he bother doing that, why, cause that's illogical, and God being omnipotent can't be illogical or else that would be a flaw of his omnipotent.
 
  • #25
Castilla said:
Can God create a rock so heavy that he himself can not lift it?

- An omnipotent being can do anything. So, yes, he can create that rock, because if he couldn't, he would not be omnipotent.

- But then he is not omnipotent, because there is a creature that he can not lift.

- You right... then answer is: "No, God can not create that rock".

- But an omnipotent being can create anything, so if he can't create that rock, he is not omnipotent.

- Your right... then answer is "Yes, He can create it"...

Ad infinitum...

All is a game of words for trying to use a senseless word ("omcnipotent").
Why is it so hard to understand that a God who is omnipotent (all powerful would mean that he is also all-everything) is non-contradictory. As someone said before, logic (or logic-tricks/games for that matter) do not apply to God. If you are attempting to logically disprove God's existence, you will find yourself thinking that you are disproving him, but then remembering that he -- if he is afterall, all-powerful -- can not be contradicted.
 
  • #26
dekoi said:
As someone said before, logic (or logic-tricks/games for that matter) do not apply to God.

Exactly the point we were trying to make otherwise she couln't be allpowerfull
 
  • #27
Sho'Nuff said:
If one is confined to logic then yes, omnipotent would be a senseless word

A small clarification, perhaps it was just an oversight: neither the word nor the definition is senseless. Only a statement can be senseless/meaningless/undecidable, and a statement is only undecidable in a system- when evaluated according to the rules/axioms of the system.

AiA,
It seems that you are still not making the distinction between your personal concept of God and the way the term "God" is being used in this discussion.
AiA said:
God being omnipotent can't be illogical or else that would be a flaw of his omnipotent.
You have still not given an argument to support this assertion.
 
  • #28
0TheSwerve0 said:
Can you explain a bit more on your questions please?
Actually, after rereading your post, I see you are using a different definition of omnipotent. Are you defining omnipotence in a strictly material world, i.e., are you assuming materialism? What about determinism?
I ask because 1) your mention of Lucretius makes me suspect you are assuming materialism (and so probably determinism) and 2) that would mean physical causation is the only "power", thus no being (besides perhaps the universe) would be omnipotent. This fits your mention of states instead of beings, and the verb "cause" would seem to fit your verb form of "God".
However, determinism also means, in any given situation, there is only ever one (actionable) possibility, which causes obvious problems with the idea of control or choice.

Your example about the author makes me suspect you are assuming free will. In fact, your definition of omnipotence seem to be the usual dualistic definition of free will (the will is partially limited and partially free) since you admit some limitations but still allow some choices.
 
  • #29
Well, here's what I can throw into the debate for what it's worth:

The God of Classical Theism (in other words the Christian God) is defined as having the following attributes:

Omnipotence (all powerful)
Omniscience (all knowing)
Omnibenevolence (all loving).

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

There's one problem for you...

And after much personal thought and relfection I've come to the conlusion that one cannot argue for the existence of a perfect being, because if one had to argue for its existence then it would no longer be perfect. So assuming Anselm was correct, and that "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived", then it is impossible to argue for the existence of God, and therefore it is impossible to prove he is a necessarily existent being, and so to cut a long story short, even if there is a God, as Aquinas pointed out, we cannot know his nature...to me, this means we cannot know God.

If you want me to expand and clarify what I'm trying to get across I'd be happy to, as at the moment its mostly incoherent ramblings resulting from too much relfection on the Ontological argument for the existence of God.
 
  • #30
Firstly, I am an atheist so people have every right to claim that my view of God below is not consistent with the Christian one.

What I find puzzling is why Christians insist on 'omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolent' as definition of god instead of using logic.

What I have in mind is a theory that puts logic first - God created rules and laws of nature and the rules of logic etc (perhaps the whole universe is some kind of manifestation of God). Then of course God could not do certain things, like 'create a rock so heavy that she can't lift it' because that would violate the laws of logic ie be inconsistent with itself.

I think the concepts of absolute omnipotence came about from an exaggeration of people's imaginations 2000 years ago - of course a being that could make worlds (via the laws of nature or otherwise) is very, very, very powerful when compared to human standards but not all-powerful to the degree of self-contradiction.

Consider ethics - God is necessarily good (by essence/nature) as well as embodying the laws of ethics in itself. Therefore God could not do evil because that would go against its nature. This would also make God not 'omni'potent. The concept of 'omnibenevolence' is meaningful only if there exists some standard of morality independent of God, otherwise it would go something like
1)God is good by definition
2)everything God does is good because of 1 and
3)if god had done the opposite to what it had it would still have been good, the only difference would be the actual definitions of good and bad'.

In which case the whole concept of omnibenevolence is a mere tautology and ethics is reduced to the mere whims of God without reference to any stable standard.
 
  • #31
Jikx said:
A very short point..

If God is all powerful beyond belief, then it would be possible that God can be illogical and still exist, as God is not bound by any laws, not even that of logic.

What do you guys think?


god doesn't exist, end of logic
 
  • #32
haha.. maybe you would care to explain the reasoning or rather, the logic behind your statement.

What if God could create a rock so large that he couldn't lift it, yet could still lift it and not lift it (because of its size) at the same time. Inconcievable yes? But for some reason it could still make some sort of weird sense if you believe that god can do anything.. starting to sound a bit like quantum mechanics or something.
 
  • #33
god-dog-it

god-logic=oxymormon.

i'm doing laundry yesterday at the laundramat. there were two Punjabs and one woman from Mexico (que la steama').

I asked the Punjab's a question similar to your thread topic.

This was our conversation:

Me: What God do you believe in?

Them: God? We do not believe like ...

Me: What God do you worship, kundalini ...c'mon?

Punjabs: We do not believe like that. God is unknown-that is all we know.



I guess you would have had to have been there. The moment was ...

God is unknown. I wonder why they didn't teach me that in Catholic sk :devil: oool.
 
  • #34
Jikx said:
What if God could create a rock so large that he couldn't lift it, yet could still lift it and not lift it (because of its size) at the same time. Inconcievable yes? But for some reason it could still make some sort of weird sense if you believe that god can do anything.. starting to sound a bit like quantum mechanics or something.

I realize that in this forum God has not yet been proven, but I am a believer, and I believe that God is an omnipotent, perfect metaphysical being. Therefore, he would not be able to create a rock so large that he couldn't lift it, because that would be a mistake: an imperfection.

It is difficult to prove whether God exists without using a lot of theology. Not knowing where everybody in this thread stands theologically, I will not try to force my beliefs upon you unless asked to.
 
  • #35
first of all, God, is the most illogical of all illogical theories, and when I use the term illogical, I do not mean illogical for rhe humam perception, no, it's deeper and simpliest than that, the theory of God is illogical for all the nature of existence itself, there are a lot of arguments do aprove God as real, for instance, the "perfection" of reality, the humam condition, the goodness of the world, the fight against evil, and so on, but the strongest argument that theists possess, is that existence could not came from nothing, it was a supreme and omnipresent being that created all this, in my opinion that is the faulty argument of them all, why could God (an illogical and impossible being) had always existed, and the universe (or that which compose it) could not had exist forever
 

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