Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Logic of god

  1. Dec 1, 2004 #1
    A very short point..

    If God is all powerful beyond belief, then it would be possible that God can be illogical and still exist, as God is not bound by any laws, not even that of logic.

    What do you guys think?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 2, 2004 #2
    If God is all powerful and created the universe he also created the laws by which it behaves.
    This would include the laws of logic and mathematics as well as the physical laws.
    If God created the laws of logic he himself would then be logical.
    Why then would a logical entity create and then break his own laws?

    In my opinion God is logical, reasoning and natural. There is no reason, logical or otherwise for God to be illogical. The short coming is ours, our logic and understanding that make it appear illogical.
     
  4. Dec 3, 2004 #3

    honestrosewater

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    By definition, there are no limits on an omnipotent being's power.
     
  5. Dec 3, 2004 #4
    Well the problem is that you are trying to apply regular standards of humanity to God. You have to understand the unique power of this deity, which does not allow itself to be given human-like qualities.

    If God is perfect, he is perfect in every good aspect known to man, as well as others not known by man.
     
  6. Dec 4, 2004 #5
    damn... so i suppose it all boils down to this; what is perfection.

    maybe the world we live in is heaven :eek:
     
  7. Dec 4, 2004 #6

    honestrosewater

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    The question is not about humanity or perfection. "God", as you have here defined the term, is being mistaken for other definitions to which the term "God" is applied. This is why I try to avoid capitalizing the term "God", but I understand, it is a matter of respect for some.

    Your definition: God's power is unlimited.
    Can logic limit God's power? No. Read your definition.
    Can people limit God's power? No. Read your definition.

    Can God limit God's power? Well, now you have an interesting question. If you say yes, "God can limit God's power" then you are using logic to limit God's power. Can you limit God's power? No. Can logic limit God's power? No. So you cannot say yes.
    If you say no, "God cannot limit God's power" then you are using logic to limit God's power. Can you limit God's power? No. Can logic limit God's power? No.
    So you cannot say no.
    You can neither say yes nor say no.
    I will have to check with someone more comfortable with these concepts, but I believe the question "Can God limit God's power?" is undecidable by your definition.
    Did you follow that? I will find a someone to check me. I just learned about decidability yesterday :biggrin:
     
  8. Dec 4, 2004 #7
    Quite impossible. If we were already in heaven, we would already been perfect (perfect humans that is). If that were true, we would nothing to strive for in life. We might as well be automata.
     
  9. Dec 4, 2004 #8

    AiA

    User Avatar

    Can God contradict himself

    Honestrosewater, you make an good point, but your argument is very much like the question can God make a stone so big that even he can't lift it. The thing you must realize is what your doing is playing with words to prove God doesn't exist, your trying to contradict him. Well simply put if God is perfect, then what ever logic you have comes from him so then what would appear illogical about God would be your lack of perfect logic to comprehend him, hence the mystery of God.

    Then arises another question, is God perfect, and why?
     
  10. Dec 4, 2004 #9
    God is beyond logic. God makes laws for us to abide by. I know this may sound a little "brainwashed" but God is perfect. Perfect to the extent of being beyond human understanding, which is why it's been around for as long as time. It's a questoin as old as time and will continue to be so.
     
  11. Dec 5, 2004 #10

    honestrosewater

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Obviously no poster has understood what I have said. Nothing I've said proves or disproves the existence of anything.
    Your personal concept of what the term God means is not relevant here; Jikx's question is not about your personal concept of God. Jikx asked a question about omnipotent beings and logic.
    This is not the place for preaching about your personal concept of God.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2004
  12. Dec 6, 2004 #11

    AiA

    User Avatar

    Answering first post

    God can't be perfect and be illogical cause being illogical is a mistake, and God being perfect wouldn't make mistakes.
     
  13. Dec 6, 2004 #12
    What if we think of what it means to be omnipotent. If omnipotent means having everything subject to your will/power, then even if the omnipotent being couldn't do something, it would still be within the realm of the omnipotent being's powers. I guess what I mean is being omnipotent is being in a position of control above everything/one else in that situation.

    Omni = all, potent = powerful. What if it doesn't mean having every power imaginable, but being powerful in all ways that it is possible in a situation.
    Say for example, you are writing an essay and you, being the author, have total control over what goes into the essay. Yes, you are limited in where you can take the essay, but you are still unlimited in where you take it given your position.

    Hope that isn't too crazy.
    BTW, anyone here read Lucretius' On the Nature of Things
     
  14. Dec 6, 2004 #13
    I guess on that vein, is an omnipotent being a being at all or a state? Does it have an ego that can be limited? I once had a discussion where a friend concluded that God is a verb rather than a noun. God is to be in a state of perfection (how you define that is anyone's guess).
     
  15. Dec 6, 2004 #14
    I guess no one can rule out any possibile statement concerning God. As honestrosewater pointed out using logic to describe an allpowerfull god raises some funny issues (I personally like "can God create a rock that he cannot lift himself") so therefore If an omnipotent god would exist she would certainly not be logical to our standards.
     
  16. Dec 6, 2004 #15

    AiA

    User Avatar

    It seems like you people are trying to find a contradiction in God, God in omnipotent meaning perfect, perfection can't be limited by situations or else he wouldn't be perfect.
     
  17. Dec 6, 2004 #16

    honestrosewater

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    If it sounds like I'm being unfair, let me first clarify: My arguments are based on four things which I think are relevant to this discussion: 1) Jikx's original question, 2) the definition of omnipotence, 3) the rules of logic and 4) the rules of PF.

    AiA,
    but Jikx didn't define God as being perfect. Unless you can argue that perfection follows from omnipotence, talking about perfection is off-topic. Feel free to make that argument (ex. an omnipotent being could make itself perfect) or start another thread about perfect beings. :smile:

    Sho'Nuff,
    Assuming that all definitions of "god" fall into the field of metaphysics, you may be right. You may be interested in this thread (https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=54314) which asks why all metaphysical questions are undecidable.

    0TheSwerve0,
    Interesting. What about the situation of defining "omnipotent"? And the situation of determining the options in any and all situations?
     
  18. Dec 6, 2004 #17
    WOW long one .... but looks like fun

    *starts reading*
     
  19. Dec 6, 2004 #18

    AiA

    User Avatar

    Your making this too dificult

    First off, metaphysical questions can be answered, secondly, all powerful means if all powerful is limited then its no longer all powerful, its somewhat powerful, almost all powerful, but not all powerful. And by being illogical, it becomes no longer all powerful cause it made a mistake cause logic is right then illogic must be (this shouldn't be hard to figure out) wrong, then by an all powerful being being wrong it no longer is all powerful.
     
  20. Dec 6, 2004 #19

    honestrosewater

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Omnipotent doesn't mean perfect. Saying that an omnipotent being must be perfect is limiting the power of an omnipotent being. An omnipotent being can do or not do whatever it wants, by definition.
    Logic cannot say whether or not an omnipotent being can limit itself. The question is logically undecidable.
     
  21. Dec 6, 2004 #20
    yes But the answer is neither true nor false

    So therefore also not limited by logic

    :cry:
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?



Similar Discussions: Logic of god
  1. Gods (Replies: 22)

  2. God ! (Replies: 2)

Loading...