there is a possibility of having a friendly argument over Loll Gravity (CDT) the missing ingredient was always some benign opposition willing to put in the necessary work to understand it and discuss the weak points I was listing the various outlaw approaches to QG in another thread https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=102147 and in post #7 Garrett offered a good summary of CDT and preliminary reasons that he didnt like it or in any case wasnt sure. https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=853927#post853927 this is a generous and collective-minded thing to do because he has his OWN approach to QG----but instead of wanting only to talk about his own ideas, and being purely negative or closed to other, he was looking at CDT in a receptive way without any animosity. you may think that this is the obvious way to act, but I dont think it is common enough. I think the best strategy for outlaws is to understand each other's work and give each other friendly critiques as one would do in a research seminar. I'm saying something blatantly obvious, right? If we were a face-to-face community of grad students at a good university this kind of constructive behavior would be TAKEN FOR GRANTED. But I am on west coast, Garrett is on Maui, Torsten is in Berlin, and Renate Loll who is in Utrecht doesn't even come to PF. Actually what we need most is not Loll, it is Willem Westra. he is the CDT guy working on topology change. That would help answer what Garrett said.