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News London Tower Block Fire

  1. Jun 14, 2017 #1

    Nidum

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  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 14, 2017 #2

    jedishrfu

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  4. Jun 14, 2017 #3

    Borek

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    Exactly my thoughts.
     
  5. Jun 14, 2017 #4

    russ_watters

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    I don't get it. From what I have heard, there were no active sprinklers or alarms, though I'm not sure if that means they didn't exist or weren't working. I'm not sure the age of the building, but anything less than 20 years old should be sprinklered.

    This shouldn't happen in a developed country.
     
  6. Jun 14, 2017 #5

    Bandersnatch

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    Early edits on Wikipedia can sometimes be unreliable, but there's a lot of talk there about long-standing issues with fire safety violations by the building administration.
     
  7. Jun 14, 2017 #6

    russ_watters

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    My understanding of the code is that all high-rise buildings in the USA are required to have sprinklers, by retrofit if necessary if they are older than about 30 years due to some high profile fatal fires in the 1980s.
    http://www.floridafiresprinkler.com/files/4714/7122/2210/Hi_Rise_Retrofit_-_FAQ_Final.pdf

    The One Meridian fire in Philly in 1991 showed the spectacular ability of a small number of heads to stop a fire:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Meridian_Plaza

    The building had been built in 1972 and was partially retrofitted by the time of the fire.
     
  8. Jun 14, 2017 #7

    Vanadium 50

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    There is speculation that the building's cladding ignited and contributed to the fire's spread.
     
  9. Jun 14, 2017 #8

    berkeman

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    Yeah, I haven't found any mention of sprinklers yet (strangely), but there is this about the cladding from CNN:

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/europe/west-london-fire/index.html
     
  10. Jun 14, 2017 #9

    Astronuc

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    The Atlantic magazine did a story on the Grenfell Tower and conditions that contributed to the fire.

    The Grenfell Tower Fire and London's Public-Housing Crisis, Toby Melville / Reuters

    https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...6/london-fire-grenfell-public-housing/530298/

    One resident has apparently claimed his refrigerator exploded leading to the fire.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/devastat...s-fire-caused-fridge-exploding-145403064.html
    Well clearly, the required building control, fire regulation, and health and safety standards are inadequate, or the work was somehow deficient.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
  11. Jun 14, 2017 #10

    Evo

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    From the reports I read they weren't installed because of cost! Those people need to be tried for manslaughter!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/93685630/live-london-highrise-grenfall-tower-on-fire
     
  12. Jun 15, 2017 #11

    mheslep

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    Its not so much height as fire area sq ft now. Most any commercial building over 1000 sq ft, especially retail businesses, have a sprinkler requirement in my area, regardless of height. Any building over 5K sq ft regardless of use with an occupant load over 100 requires sprinklers.
     
  13. Jun 16, 2017 #12

    f95toli

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    There are no regulations in the UK that say that you need to have a sprinkler system installed so I don't see how there could be a legal case; the regulations that require a sprinkler system in tall building were only introduced in 2007 and were not retroactive, meaning many (I suspect most) tall buildings older than that won't have a sprinkler system installed.
    There are LOTS of old buildings in the UK and retrofitting sprinkler systems is often extremely difficult our even impossible (as opposed to just costly) so it is not surprising that the law was not retroactive.

    There is an ongoing criminal investigation but so far no one has -as far as I am aware- been able to pinpoint an actual violation of building regulations.
     
  14. Jun 16, 2017 #13

    Evo

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    That's terrible. Thank you for the information. People shouldn't be allowed to live in those death traps, IMO.
     
  15. Jun 24, 2017 #14

    russ_watters

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    It has been confirmed:
    http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/23/news/whirlpool-london-fire-grenfell-tower/index.html

    A potential contributing factor here is that due to anti-global warming and ozone depletion regulations, refrigerants are being/have been switched from compounds that aren't flammable to compounds that are highly flammable (such as propane).
    http://www.ukfiretraining.com/news/fridge-freezer-fires.html
     
  16. Jun 24, 2017 #15

    Astronuc

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  17. Jun 24, 2017 #16

    DrGreg

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  18. Jun 24, 2017 #17

    phinds

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    That is VERY misleadingly stated. Suppose it was 34 failed out of 7,000 tested? You see how your statement doesn't do justice to the facts? In actuality it was 34 failed out of 34 tested.
     
  19. Jun 26, 2017 #18

    jim hardy

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    everybody has jumped on the paneling

    seems to me we should question the foam behind it

    from the NYT article(crude annotations mine)
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/world/europe/grenfell-tower-london-fire.html
    Panel_LondonFire.jpg

    If you build a chamber with one side heatproof, ie ceramic like a concrete wall
    and the other side a heat reflector like the aluminum panel
    then stuff it with fuel like that insulating foam against the concrete wall
    and provide for forced draft of air, in this case convection over a lot of vertical height

    you have built yourself a blast furnace or maybe a gigantic blowtorch.

    If that foam adjacent the concrete wall is flammable,
    i suspect those panels would have melted even if they were solid steel.
    That they fell, probably aflame from their polyurethane sandwich, does not surprise me. Probably their support brackets failed from the heat.
    But i bet it was spectacular . Are there reports of a tornado like roar?


    If anybody hears what was that foam , post a link to it?
    Here's one to the panels. They meet ASTM E84.

    https://www.arconic.com/aap/north_america/catalog/pdf/brochures/Reynobond_Brochure.pdf

    How about the foam behind them ? Looks to me like that was the culprit.

    It's a personal theory , just putting it out for consideration. We must await details.
    If mentors want to delete as 'personal theory against guidelines' there's no hard feelings.

    old jim
     
  20. Jun 26, 2017 #19

    Nidum

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  21. Jun 26, 2017 #20

    jim hardy

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    https://www.celotex.co.uk/products/rs5000
    What's Polyisocyuranate?
    http://www.polyiso.org/?page=FirePerformance
    Looks like both components, insulation and panels, meet the ASTM E84 standard tests. Polysilo says it's 'resistant' up to 390F.

    This is how codes and standards evolve as industry learns from its mistakes.
    This one will teach standards organizations to test for "Chimney Effect" .

    Thanks Nidum !

    old jim
     

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