'lucifer, Prometheus & QuÉtzalcoatl'

  • #1
Ivan Seeking
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This is a wild one folks.

It is a literature that can no longer be ignored by responsible social scientists, including cultural anthropologists like myself. Thus, I've decided to "come out of the closet," as it were, and assert my belief that the UFO phenomenon is real--despite the carefully orchestrated attempts by our own and other governments to deny its existence, and the skeptics and debunkers who do their best to make persons who take the phenomenon seriously appear ridiculous.

http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/2003/divinerebels.htm



I will check up on this guy a little later.
 

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  • #2
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This article focuses on three trickster deities: (1) The Old Testament figure Lucifer, the "Light-Bearer," who, in defiance of Yahweh, brought self-awareness to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden; (2) the Greek deity Prometheus, who rebelled against the authority of Zeus and gave fire to mankind; and (3) the ancient Mesoamerican god Quétzalcoatl, the "Feathered Serpent," known to the Maya as Kukulkan, who was forced into exile because of his efforts on behalf of mankind.
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Have you ever noticed how the entities bringing something positive and useful to mankind are vilified ?
 
  • #3
Jonathan
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Yes, but they only think that what they do is good for mankind. We were far better off in the Garden. It is that they are evil, assuming that they know better than God what is good for us, that they are vilified.
 
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  • #4
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We can add Judas to that list too.

It seems an evolutionary flaw of humanity that we are always either apologising for our successes, or so arrogant that we fail to realize our defeats.
 
  • #5
phoenixthoth
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Yes, but they only think that what they do is good for mankind. We were far better off in the Garden. It is that they are evil, assuming that they know better than God what is good for us, that they are vilified.
i think cipher would attribute luciferic properties to morpheus and neo for removing him from the matrix, leading him into a rather crappy "real world."

as far as i know, exile from garden was either because of the disobedience, on general principle, or because of that plus that adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge (which would entail, i assume, that they gained some knowledge).

ingorance and bliss or knowledge and anti-bliss. another way I've heard that choice is this: ignorance is bliss and knowledge is power.

should we blame them or free will in general? i think that existence in the garden implies at least some limitation on free will. however, if the only freedom that is taken away is eating from the tree of knowledge, then i guess i'd rather have limited free will plus ignorance plus bliss.

if you could have infinite bliss if all free will were taken away and you were a total God-controlled robot, would you choose infinite bliss?

in the bible, it says the garden is protected by an angel (or a bunch of them) and there is a flaming sword that turns every way. one way to interpret that is that no matter how you approach the garden (eg from the north), the sword will be pointed at you. another way to interpret it is that you hold that sword and you're pointing it at yourself; no matter how you move it's always pointing at you. in other words, you prevent yourself from having bliss. perhaps it's even the case that you are the only one who can prevent you from having bliss...
 
  • #6
zoobyshoe
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The philosophical connections between these figures is interesting, but the man is saying it's about space aliens.
 
  • #7
Ivan Seeking
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Genesis 6

The Flood

1 When men began to increase in number on the Earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [1] man forever, for he is mortal [2] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the Earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the Earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.


The Nephilim (Hebrew for "the fallen ones") were a race of giants who were fathered by angels who had left heaven to mate with mortal women. There are two clear biblical references to the Nephilim, one at Genesis 6:1-4 and the other in the Book of Numbers 13:33; the story of the Nephilim is chronicled more fully in the apocryphal Book of Enoch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim
 
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  • #8
Ivan Seeking
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In the Testament of Solomon, a dialog with a demon is very revealing as to the Satanic hidden agenda of the dumbing down of the church and the knowledge of angels.


"I (Solomon) commanded another demon be brought to me; and he (Beelzeboul) brought me the evil demon Asmodeus, bound. I asked him, 'Who are you?' He scowled at me and said, 'And who are you?' I said to him, 'You dare to answer so arrogantly when you have been punished like this?'


He continued to give forth the same look and said to me, 'How should I answer you? You are the son of a man, but although I was born of a human mother, I am the son of an angel, it is impossible for one of heavenly origin to speak an arrogant word to one of earthly origin...You have us to torture for a little while; then we shall disperse among human beings again with the result that we shall be worshipped as gods because men do not know the names of angels who rule over us.?'"...
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Second Fall

And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels; and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more for them in heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." revelation 12: 7...
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"Go say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to pray for them; You ought to pray for men, and not men for you.

Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures forever, and have lain with women/ have defiled yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and have begotten giants (Gen. 6:4).

You being spiritual, holy, and living a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do...Say to them: Never therefore shall you obtain peace." The Book of Enoch Chapter 15: 1-5; 16: 5.

http://www.logoschristian.org/thrones/
 
  • #9
Ivan Seeking
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From 3000 BC, China: From the book " Memories of the Sovereigns and the Kings " published in the 3rd century AD in China.

...in the third millennium B.C., before the birth of Huang Ti or of Chi You. ...'sons from the sky', would descend to Earth on a star which was the shape of a saucer
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Exodus 13

20 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness.
21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.
--------------------------------------------------------

It is in the Mahabharata that we hear about Bhima who “flew with his vimana on an enormous ray which was as brilliant as the sun and made a noise like the thunder of a storm”. And in the same great ancient Indian epic we also hear about the great warrior Arjuna’s ascent to Indra’s heaven. Importantly, Arjuna is, we are told, a mortal. However, during the telling of his particular adventure we are told of his ascent to heaven in a car that travels upwards to the clouds with a noise like thunder. Whilst traveling to heaven Arjuna apparently also sees flying cars that have crashed and are out of action and other flying cars that are stationary, whilst others fly freely in the air.

http://www.etcontact.net/documents/doc115.htm
 
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  • #10
phoenixthoth
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i think shaq must be a descendant of a Nephilim.
 
  • #11
Jonathan
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Where is this thread going? Might this be of any relevance?:
http://www.frank.germano.com/christianstudy.htm#gardenofeden [Broken]
 
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  • #12
Originally posted by Jonathan
Yes, but they only think that what they do is good for mankind. We were far better off in the Garden. It is that they are evil, assuming that they know better than God what is good for us, that they are vilified.
(2) the Greek deity Prometheus, who rebelled against the authority of Zeus and gave fire to mankind; and (3) the ancient Mesoamerican god Quétzalcoatl, the "Feathered Serpent," known to the Maya as Kukulkan, who was forced into exile because of his efforts on behalf of mankind.

So, are you saying not only would mankind be better without fire, but that Zeus and Quetzalcoatl are god?
 
  • #13
einsteinian77
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Assuming that there is a God, say Zeus, then rebelling against him would only cut off perfection from whomever rebells.
 
  • #14
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einsteinian77: Er... if you know anything about greek mythology, you would understand that to the greeks, perfection exists in spite of the gods, not thanks to them. To punish Prometheus for elevating humans from the level of mere animals, the gods then tricked them with pandora's box to deliver strife into the world. The greek gods themselves were rebels from the older rule of Kronos...
 
  • #15
phoenixthoth
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a extreme luddite might say that the species would be better off without fire or any technology. this reminds me of somethin palmer joss said in contact, which goes something like this: are we better off as a species because of science? i would guess that he is wondering if we're more enlightened or happy but i don't know. personally, i think people would find a way to make life suck or not regardless of external conditions (eg with or without fire, with or without science, with or withour technology), though perhaps there is less suck and more not with science and technology. one might invoke medicine for instance but if we were animals we may not even care when people die of disease and so it wouldn't suck to not have medicine. another question related to the garden of eden is would we be better off without knowledge either of good and bad or in general?
 
  • #16
einsteinian77
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But considering no one is or ever will be perfect, our mere existence must then be inherently evil. So to aid humans is to aid only imperfections and thus it will never amount to anything but a negative end result.
 
  • #17
einsteinian77
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I just remembered that what I'm talking about has nothing to do with the meaning of this thread, actually it has nothing to do with anything
 
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  • #18
Jonathan
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Yes, I think I'm confused, as per my post about 'where is this thread is going?'. But to reply to Boulderhead: Promethus, Zeus, and Quezawhatzitnochqifn(etc.) never existed. My point is not that we'd be better of without fire, because in this world it's great to have, my point is that we were better off in perfection with God, without the need for fire. Of course it's too late now, we need fire and I'm glad to have it. :smile:
To answer phoenixthoth's last question: No, only if we were still with God would it be better to not know the difference between good and evil, but we're not, so it's not.
 
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  • #19
Ivan Seeking
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This thread addresses the suggestion that "aliens" [really I mean “ET’s”, which I prefer not to try and define] are the true source of at least some of mythology.

This is an idea that seems to grow in popularity. History books are filled with tales that we interpret within certain criteria, but that are surely consistent with modern UFO and alien claims. Also, from a purely logical point of view, this explanation is more likely than is the existence of a true deity. What's more, most religions tell of non-human beings intervening in human affairs. I don't see that this idea is any more unreasonable than most religious beliefs; as I said, it is even consistent with if not required by those beliefs in most cases.
 
  • #20
Ivan Seeking
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This would explain the 500 year old mystery of why heaven is up.
 
  • #21
Guybrush Threepwood
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Originally posted by BoulderHead
(1) The Old Testament figure Lucifer, the "Light-Bearer," who, in defiance of Yahweh, brought self-awareness to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden

I couldn't find a mentioning of Lucifer in the OT
 
  • #22
Jonathan
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Well maybe not in that name, but I'm sure you noticed the serpent and the tree, etc.?
 
  • #23
Guybrush Threepwood
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Originally posted by Jonathan
Well maybe not in that name, but I'm sure you noticed the serpent and the tree, etc.?

the tree? Lucifer?
how do you know that Lucifer is the serpent? why not the pharaoh? why not somebody else?
can you offer a reference that says "Lucifer = serpent"?
 
  • #24
phoenixthoth
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i have an electronic king james and in it the first mention of lucifer is isiah and the first mention of satan is chronicles I. as far as i can see, it just refers to the serpent in genesis as the serpent. not sure where people get the idea that the serpent is either satan or lucifer. perhaps that's in other versions. maybe the serpent was QuÉtzalcoatl!
 
  • #25
Jonathan
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I know that the serpent was Satan not only because of the repeated use of the words serpent and Satan interchangably later on, but because the Hebrew word (nachash) that was translated serpent was proabably more accurately tanslated "the shining one", because before Satan sinned he was ehld in high regard. I suggest you read this whole site, I know it's long, but so is the Bible:
http://www.frank.germano.com/christian_links.htm [Broken]
Lots of linguistics, seems well thought out and very interesting.
EDIT: this might be a bit more to the point:
http://www.frank.germano.com/the_serpent.htm [Broken]
 
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  • #26
Guybrush Threepwood
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But I was referring to Lucifer, not Satan..

phoenix was right, I found this (Isaiah 14:12). It says nothing about Lucifer being Satan or serpent.

So was Lucifer some fallen angel - probably. Is he the same with Satan - that's your opinion, based on other stories than the Bible.
 
  • #27
Jonathan
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I have never heard this before. I have always been under the impression that Satan, the serpent, Lucifer, the Dragon, and that other name that starts with B that I can't remember were all the same being. I have read the Bible and with the vagueness and symbology I have never had a problem with this weird terminology. I'm quite sure that they are all the same, esp. given that I have never heard otherwise. Are you in such a position (ie have studied this a lot) to say that maybe it isn't? Now that I think of it, I think I remember reading verses where they were used in series separated by commas like that, making it quite clear. I can't think of any particular verse, maybe I'm imagining it?
 
  • #28
Jonathan
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Here we go:
Rev12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 
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  • #29
phoenixthoth
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my version is this:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was
cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with
him.

to take it literally, it just said the old serpent has been called the devil and satan. it doesn't say the old serpent is the devil or satan. to take it by its spirit, the old serpent is the devil and satan.

it does use the masculine "his" instead of the feminine "her" or the neutral "its." I've heard some people (perhaps feminists) wonder why no one thinks maybe God is a woman but i don't hear those people wondering if satan is a woman. ;)

perhaps the great dragon is a QuÉtzalcoatl reference.

a reference was made to satan's angels. i suppose lucifer is one of those angels if lucifer isn't satan.

i think the whole satan concept, if not literally true, is a useful metaphor for aspects of the ego. in that satan appeared to jesus and attempted to tempt him, if that episode isn't literal, to me means that jesus had an ego he transcended with his faith in and love for God.
 
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  • #30
Guybrush Threepwood
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All I'm saying is thet Lucifer is only once mentioned in the Bible (that is where phoenix found it). You don't find that name mentioned here (Revelations 12:9).
Yes I may not want to interpret the Bible as all the world does (knows) but IMO, the guy who wrote the article (see the first post) has some ideas, but he also is looking for sensational stories.
 
  • #32
Guybrush Threepwood
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Originally posted by Jonathan
Here are all the suppossed names of, um, well, whoever we're talking about:

scared to say supreme evil
I guess my point is that while Prometeus and Quetzalcoatl have some things in common (both gave men fire, knowledge, whatever; both fought the gods), the reference to Lucifer from the OT was thrown in the article just to make it longer (IMO).
 
  • #33
phoenixthoth
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my knowledge of egyptian mythology is rather weak, but I've heard that thoth gave man writing (or perhaps language).

is that what you've heard?

was thoth ever punished or vilified for giving man a gift?
 
  • #34
einsteinian77
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Thoth was the God responsible for giving man music, math writing, astronomy and couple of other things too according to ancient egyptian mythology. He was never "punished" because he was a God not a man or an angel therefor he had the right to give man those gifts.
 
  • #35
Ivan Seeking
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Originally posted by Guybrush Threepwood
All I'm saying is thet Lucifer is only once mentioned in the Bible (that is where phoenix found it). You don't find that name mentioned here (Revelations 12:9).
Yes I may not want to interpret the Bible as all the world does (knows) but IMO, the guy who wrote the article (see the first post) has some ideas, but he also is looking for sensational stories.

Also, if you look at the bottom of the linked page, you will see that he is selling books...of course, isn't everyone? I have heard of people in his position exploring their own ideas through novels; so this alone is not reason to ignore his suggestions. Clark did this to the extent that he actually invented the communications satellite concept - thus the Clark Belt.
 
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