Magnetism and Circular Motion: Exploring IronMan's Technology

In summary, the conversation revolved around a design idea inspired by the movie IronMan, which involved a circle with magnets facing inward and a blade with magnets facing outward. The question was whether the blade would spin depending on the angle of the outward-facing magnets and for how long. It was determined that the device would not make a single rotation and even with three blades, it would only rotate a few degrees before stopping. Additionally, trying to extract energy from the device would not result in long-lasting rotation as it would not have enough momentum to continue spinning. The conversation also touched on the impossibility of perpetual motion machines and the forbidden nature of discussing them on the forum.
  • #1
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I was watching some FX yesterday and Robert Downey's best, IronMan was on. I got to thinking, if possible, how does his little energy producing circle actually works. The idea is this:

Picture a circle lined with magnets all facing negatively inward. In the center is a blade with parallel edges, much like a propellor of a lawn mower. At those edges, you place magnets facing negatively outward.

Question: if this circle and blade are aligned on the same plane would the blade spin dependent on the angle of the outward pushing magnets, and if so for how long?

I understand perpetual motion isn't possible but I can foresee many uses of a long lasting rotation.

Thanks
 
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  • #2
Ryanuga said:
I was watching some FX yesterday and Robert Downey's best, IronMan was on. I got to thinking, if possible, how does his little energy producing circle actually works.
By movie FX.

It had to be said. :biggrin:

But we'll look at your design aside from the movie FX source that inspired it.

Ryanuga said:
Picture a circle lined with magnets all facing negatively inward. In the center is a blade with parallel edges, much like a propellor of a lawn mower. At those edges, you place magnets facing negatively outward.

Question: if this circle and blade are aligned on the same plane would the blade spin dependent on the angle of the outward pushing magnets, and if so for how long?

The device would not make a single rotation. It would rotate a few degrees to place the negative poles as far as possible from each other (depending on how many magnets in your rings, but no more than 90 degrees) and then it would stop.
 
  • #3
What about with three blades. The whole idea is if the the force pushing out on an angled surface would push against the outer ring disproportionately, sending the inside structure into motion
 
  • #4
Ryanuga said:
What about with three blades. The whole idea is if the the force pushing out on an angled surface would push against the outer ring disproportionately, sending the inside structure into motion
And indeed it will move - as much as 60 degrees before stopping.

Once the inner magnets reach a point of maximum distance from the outer magnets, they are being repelled, and will not have enough momentum to reach them, let alone move past them.
 
  • #5
Ryanuga, take away all the magnets and just imagine a blade spinning on a shaft. What happens if you try to produce energy from it? It slows down. So the maximum amount of energy you can get out of it depends on the mass of the blade and the speed of rotation. So long lasting rotation is ONLY possible if we DON'T try to get power and work out of it. Make sense?
 
  • #6
Drakkith said:
Ryanuga, take away all the magnets and just imagine a blade spinning on a shaft. What happens if you try to produce energy from it? It slows down. So the maximum amount of energy you can get out of it depends on the mass of the blade and the speed of rotation. So long lasting rotation is ONLY possible if we DON'T try to get power and work out of it. Make sense?
The problem is, it's even worse than that. Even with zero load and perfect frictionless system, the rotor will not rotate even once.
 
  • #7
DaveC426913 said:
The problem is, it's even worse than that. Even with zero load and perfect frictionless system, the rotor will not rotate even once.

Of course. I was pointing out the fact that even if you stuck your finger inside and started it spinning it only has as much power as you just gave it. The OP seems to think that long lasting rotation equals lots of power, which is not the case.
 
  • #8
How will the magnets reach a maximum distance between each other when the blade is centered and confined within a circle. The distance will be equal all the way around wouldn't it
 
  • #9
Ryanuga said:
How will the magnets reach a maximum distance between each other when the blade is centered and confined within a circle. The distance will be equal all the way around wouldn't it
Yes.
 
  • #10
Ryanuga said:
How will the magnets reach a maximum distance between each other when the blade is centered and confined within a circle. The distance will be equal all the way around wouldn't it

I think he means the distance between the poles. When one of your blades is in the middle of two poles of the magnets in the circle they will be at maximum distance from them.
(Imagine the minute hand on a clock as your blade and the poles of the magnets being the numbers. It would stop in the middle of two of the numbers.)
 
  • #11
Is there a way to post a document or design on here, I feel like it would be easier to explain my idea better
 
  • #12
Ryanuga said:
Is there a way to post a document or design on here, I feel like it would be easier to explain my idea better

When you hit the "New Reply" button, there are options above the text box for attaching things. The paperclip button will do attachments of documents.
 
  • #13
Ryanuga said:
Is there a way to post a document or design on here, I feel like it would be easier to explain my idea better
You certainly can, but I feel it is important to point out that we get your idea. There's no confusion.

You are not the first person to suggest the use of permanent magnets as a source of work. Regardless of the details of your particular setup, it is flawed in principle. What you are trying build - though you do not realize it yet - is a perpetual motion machine.

And discussion of PPMs is explicitly forbidden here on PF.

We'd like to help you learn but this thread will not last long on its current course.
 
  • #14
Ryanuga said:
Picture a circle lined with magnets all facing negatively inward. In the center is a blade with parallel edges, much like a propellor of a lawn mower. At those edges, you place magnets facing negatively outward.

Question: if this circle and blade are aligned on the same plane would the blade spin dependent on the angle of the outward pushing magnets, and if so for how long?
It's easy to suppose that if the outward pushing magnets, the ones attached to the blade, are only tilted the right amount you will get a force tangential to the circle at any point you choose, a force that should, you think, keep the blade moving.

In fact, though, if the outer magnets form any kind of uniform field, there is no way to orient the inner magnets attached to the rotating blade so that they feel any net force one way or the other.

Suppose all the outer magnets are oriented with their north poles facing inward. And suppose the magnets on the blades are oriented with their north poles facing outward. The blade magnets have no incentive to move from one repulsion into an equal repulsion. You could repel them into a weaker north pole, for whatever that gets you; you could repel them into an area of no north repulsion (i.e. a place where there's no magnet), and you could most easily repel them into any place into which it's also attracted by a south pole. But they won't move by themselves into an area equal in repulsion to the one they're already in.

Now suppose the blade magnets are all south poles. You have the same problem in so far as they are not attracted to any north pole down the line any more than they are attracted to the one they're already facing. No motion.

Now, and this is what I suspect you think will work, suppose you put the magnets on the blade sideways so that just as much north pole is exposed to the outer ring as south pole. Shouldn't that create repulsion at the north pole and attraction at the south pole such that the blade will start to rotate and will rotate so long as the magnets last? Unfortunately the repulsion and attraction don't act in the direction you want them to. The north poles will repel straight inward, toward the center, and the south poles will attract straight outward, from the center. You'll have radial forces instead of the tangential forces that would make the blade move. There's no way to arrange the inner magnets to get the disproportional (unbalanced) force you want in the direction you want it.
 

1. What is magnetism and how does it relate to IronMan's technology?

Magnetism is a fundamental force that describes the attraction or repulsion between objects with magnetic fields. IronMan's technology utilizes this force by incorporating powerful magnets into his suit, allowing him to fly and manipulate metal objects with ease.

2. How does circular motion play a role in IronMan's technology?

Circular motion is essential for IronMan's technology to work. By using circular motion, IronMan's suit is able to generate lift and propulsion, allowing him to fly and maneuver through the air.

3. Are there any real-life applications of IronMan's technology?

While IronMan's technology may seem like something out of a science fiction movie, there are real-life applications of similar technology. For example, some researchers are exploring the use of magnetic levitation in transportation systems, and there have been developments in exoskeleton technology that can enhance human strength and mobility.

4. Can magnetism and circular motion be used in other ways besides IronMan's technology?

Absolutely! Magnetism and circular motion have a wide range of applications in various industries. For example, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) machines use strong magnetic fields and circular motion to produce detailed images of the inside of the human body. Additionally, generators and motors use circular motion and magnetic fields to convert mechanical energy into electrical energy and vice versa.

5. What are some potential challenges and drawbacks of using magnetism and circular motion in technology?

One challenge is the cost of materials and technology required to harness strong magnetic fields and circular motion. Another potential drawback is the potential for interference with other electronic devices. Additionally, there may be health concerns for individuals who are exposed to strong magnetic fields for extended periods of time. It is important for proper safety measures to be taken when incorporating these technologies into everyday use.

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