Mass shooting in Florida

  • #1
russ_watters
Mentor
20,238
6,809
Last edited:

Answers and Replies

  • #2
14,363
11,674
It is rather difficult to comment on this from abroad. Everything concerning the availability of guns already has been said. The islamic component is difficult to comment without being called a racist or having to relate it to other religions and thereby sort of trivialize it. Fact is, that our modern commitment to political correctness prevents us from questioning the intolerance of the main two religious groups on the globe, esp. the islam.

The only comment I really like to make is, that apparently the nationalistic and segregating movements in many countries these days make inroads. (I apologize, if the usage of inroad is wrong, I had to look it up.) This is as worrying as it is sad. Violence behind single events are in my opinion an expression at the radical boundaries of these endeavours to fight everything that supposedly doesn't fit in what those - sorry - idiots regard as normal or even worse: acceptable.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes 1oldman2 and dipole
  • #4
russ_watters
Mentor
20,238
6,809
Same CNN article updated to say shooter called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS right before the attack.
 
  • #5
EnumaElish
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
2,304
124
I am personally sickened by this horrible act. I am ashamed that the attacker thought he was acting in the name of islam in any shape or form. It is a hate crime of epic proportions. I would venture that much of it was, and is, self-hatred acted out as sick violence toward peaceful people.
 
  • #6
14,363
11,674
I am personally sickened by this horrible act. I am ashamed that the attacker thought he was acting in the name of islam in any shape or form. It is a hate crime of epic proportions. I would venture that much of it was, and is, self-hatred acted out as sick violence toward peaceful people.
But you cannot pretend as if islam would tolerate homosexual people. This is simply a fact: it does not! (Seen in many arabic countries, if not all, and experienced in dozens of debates with muslims.)
 
  • #7
709
156
But you cannot pretend as if islam would tolerate homosexual people. This is simply a fact: it does not! (Seen in many arabic countries, if not all, and experienced in dozens of debates with muslims.)
While technically true, my religion, Judaism, as well as Christianity don't accept homosexuals. I would say though, that my congregation is extremely accepting, just as many synagogues, churches and mosques are. The people who are very vocal or active about not accepting homosexuals are the extremes of those religions. It just so happens that those countries you mention are run by the extremes. And, unfortunately for the Muslims who are peaceful and accepting (I happen to know many), extreme Islam happens to be a very large population.

This brings me back on topic. This was an act of extremism, by the population of Islamic extremists. I would say that while he did this in the name of Islam, I speak for many of my friends (who I have talked to about these things) when I say that radical Islam is NOT what Islam is about. In a situation that happened a few years ago, an innocent Palestinian teen was burned to death by some Orthodox men in the name of Judaism. I was very clear when talking about it that was not a reflection on Judaism, but a reflection of intolerance and hate, just as this was. I do not blame anything on this but intolerance and hate. We must also remember while this was an attack on the homosexual community, it was also an attack on the USA, and all of its citizens, including those peaceful Muslims who live here (I do not wish to sell this off as not an attack on the homosexual community, because it was very much so, I just want to acknowledge that this is also part of a bigger picture).

My condolences go out to the families who have lost loved ones as a result of these attacks, as well as the families whose loved ones have been injured by the attack.
 
  • Like
Likes gracy, 1oldman2, Garlic and 5 others
  • #8
14,363
11,674
While technically true, my religion, Judaism, as well as Christianity don't accept homosexuals.
This is exactly the kind of political correctness that leads to the suppression of an open discussion on tolerance.
Judaism: Beside some few areas in Israel there is no violence at all against LGBT. Last month they even elected a transgender woman to be Miss Israel or something similar! Unthinkable in the muslim world.
Christianity: Don't let us talk about history. That doesn't matter nowadays. I would also prefer a islamic world of the kind it has been centuries ago. That doesn't help to name the facts of today. There are christian extremists, esp. in the USA, but one evil cannot be taken to excuse another one. In the majority christians at least tolerate LGBT.
Islam: LGBT is collectively seen as a disease or otherwise abnorm. It is neither! But instead to accept this, the muslim world is still tacked to the opinions of the 7th century. I have literally never ever met a muslim who has been open minded enough to tolerate LGBT - and I've met a few. In the best case they refused to talk about it for not being held racist.

To hide those essential differences among misleading comparisons or political correctness doesn't help to address the issue. There must be a reason why so many (western) muslims of most countries join ISIL. To say it has nothing to do with religion is simply not true. And the same is right for today's massacre. To deny it may be comfortable but IMO wrong.
 
  • #9
709
156
In the majority christians at least tolerate LGBT.
I would disagree with that, especially among the most politically vocal Christian populations; evangelicals and born again Christians.
I have literally never ever met a muslim who has been open minded enough to tolerate LGBT - and I've met a few. In the best case they refused to talk about it for not being held racist.
The school I go to has about 650 people. I would say that probably at least about 75 are Muslim. As a rule, they are very accepting.
To say it has nothing to do with religion is simply not true.
I would never say it has nothing to do with religion; just that it has to do with an incorrect interpretation of a religion. A sick interpretation.
This is exactly the kind of political correctness that leads to the suppression of an open discussion on tolerance.
I would not call myself politically correct at all. If you listen to me talk politics (which I won't do on this forum) you would agree with that. I believe I just speak the truth. I was at a Jewish-Muslim peace conference and I was literally blown away. An iman (I think I spelled that right) came up and lead a moment of silence for terror victims, and then proceded to talk about tolerance. It really gave me hope for this world, and after hearing him, I defend Islam because he opened my eyes to what it is about.
 
  • Like
Likes 1oldman2 and Ryan_m_b
  • #10
12
5
This is exactly the kind of political correctness that leads to the suppression of an open discussion on tolerance.
And this is exactly the kind of statement why most of the time I can't take PC complaints seriously; disagreeing with your quite general statement isn't necessarily a sign of political correctness and doesn't lead to suppression of discussion.

The only thing I would disagree with in Isaac0427's reply is 'radical islam is not what islam is about' or 'incorrect interpretation'. That's the thing with religion, there is no correct interpretation, it's whatever the adherents make of it. You can prefer certain interpretations of course, but that's about it.
 
  • Like
Likes russ_watters and HossamCFD
  • #11
709
156
And this is exactly the kind of statement why most of the time I can't take PC complaints seriously; disagreeing with your quite general statement isn't necessarily a sign of political correctness and doesn't lead to suppression of discussion.
Agreed. I am not a fan of extreme political correctness (like people complaining about using a term they deem to be politically incorrect like African American) but stuff like this I find annoying, but I digress.
The only thing I would disagree with in Isaac0427's reply is 'radical islam is not what islam is about' or 'incorrect interpretation'. That's the thing with religion, there is no correct interpretation, it's whatever the adherents make of it. You can prefer certain interpretations of course, but that's about it
I do understand this, but the way I see it, religion can be used so peacefully. Religion can be used to justify giving to the poor and loving everyone. In my eyes, when you take something that can be used to justify peace and love and use it to justify violence and hate, it is wrong. Yes, I am the first to admit that the bible, torah and quran are violent, but if you look at other parts, they can be quite nice (and contradicting as they talk about not killing and allowing genocide at the same time). However, when you choose to read the hate parts instead of the love parts you are using the concept of religion incorrectly, and vice versa. IMO, religion is about peace, and the people who do these kinds of thing are using religion incorrectly and in a sick way.

While we are in this debate, I would like us all to acknowledge what we can all agree on; these people are sick and what they have done is absolutely awful.
 
  • Like
Likes Garlic
  • #12
Ivan Seeking
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
7,260
301
  • Like
Likes 1oldman2 and AlexCaledin
  • #13
60
199
An iman (I think I spelled that right)
Almost. It's Imam.
Iman is also an Arabic word, meaning faith/belief.

just that it has to do with an incorrect interpretation of a religion. A sick interpretation.
It's a sick interpretation alright. But I'm not sure why you deem it incorrect. I'd say it's as correct/incorrect as Sufism, Quranism, Ahmadiyya or any other relatively peaceful sect of Islam.

Not trying to pick an argument about religion. My condolences to the victims, their families, the LGBT community, and the US public in general.
 
  • #14
jim hardy
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
9,839
4,881
Everybody knows these folks are crazy hatemongering zombies hiding behind freedom of religion clause.
The WBC [Westboro Baptist Church] is not affiliated with any Baptist denomination, although it describes itself as following Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles.[10] The Baptist World Alliance and the Southern Baptist Convention (the two largest Baptist denominations) have both denounced the WBC over the years.[11] In addition, other mainstream Christian denominations, such as the Methodist Church, Baptist Church, Reformed Church, and Evangelical Church have condemned the actions of the independent Westboro Baptist Church.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church#cite_note-Crawley2009-12
they're no more Baptists than Beelzebub.

But Islam has a PR problem . Most folks know about islamism only what they hear in the news; actually only the fraction of what they hear that they accept.

Like it or not humans are xenophobic. Those black tents and masks the girls wear scare me more than a KKK hood.
Anybody with that much psychological need to hide seems to me , well, let's just say psychologically aberrant .

Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .
 
  • #15
Astronuc
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
19,021
2,386
Hints of both Islamic extremism and anti-gay motives
and apparently mental illness.
Orlando Gunman's Ex-Wife: 'He Had a History With Steroids,' Mental Illness
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/orland...ory-with-steroids-mental-illness-704171587760

So it may be more a case of mental illness and drug (steroid) abuse.

http://dujs.dartmouth.edu/2012/04/the-behavioral-effects-of-anabolic-steroid-use/#.V14cf6Pmqpo
Joseph G. Oberlander and Leslie P. Henderson of Dartmouth Medical School recently published a paper titled “The Sturm und Drang of anabolic steroid use: angst, anxiety and aggression,” focusing on possible short-term and long-term behavioral effects of using illicit anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS).
. . . .
The paper concludes that the social dysfunction, depression, anxiety, and aggression caused by the illicit use of AAS are just as harmful as the potential physiological damages. Indeed, while the physiological damage can be repaired following cessation of steroid use, behavioral damage takes much longer to heal. The paper also suggests that the damage caused by AAS is underestimated, because studies do not take into account the likelihood of alcohol and other substance abuse by athletes who have become depressed due to prolonged AAS use.
Shooter was body builder, guard; once wanted to be cop
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/shooter-body-builder-guard-once-wanted-cop-001201044.html [Broken]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #16
87
568
I don't want to participate in this debate, just want to say something about Christianity in reply to @fresh_42
I believe that Christians may be very tolerant in Germany but it's not so everywhere.
I've voluntarily become a Catholic at the age of 25 when I was surrounded by a wonderful Catholic community in the Czech rep. It was such a beautiful experience!
Than I came home and what did I find? On Advent Sunday 2013, a pastoral letter written by Bishops was read in almost all churches in the country. In it, they said that homosexual people are enemies of the nation! Whole letter, about one page long was written against homosexuals and what they call "culture of death". A year after, Christian party changed the national Constitution by inserting the passage that "marriage is a union of one man and one woman". They organise national marches to support Life (one of them was the largest demonstration in the country since the revolution!) , but they are basically used to spread hatred against all with different opinions. A few months ago, MPs under the pressure from Bishops tried to create a law that would sentence each woman who went to abortion to life sentence (you only get 25years for murder!)
Needless to say, I stopped going to church after these events. I am still so grateful for the positive experience in the CR, but we need to admit that if some Christian groups got the chance, they would do the similar things as some Muslims :-/
 
  • #17
131
40
Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .
What are you talking about? They're constantly publicly denouncing the radicals, and they are in this case too.
 
  • Like
Likes kith and Ryan_m_b
  • #18
russ_watters
Mentor
20,238
6,809
Death toll clarified: 49 murdered + 1 dead terrorist.

Also, the fact that it has been more than 24 hours without additional deaths is promising and speaks well of the Orlando hospital's mass casualty response capabilities.
 
  • #19
jim hardy
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
9,839
4,881
What are you talking about? They're constantly publicly denouncing the radicals, and they are in this case too.
it doesn't seem to make US evening news
 
  • #20
mheslep
Gold Member
311
728
... but we need to admit that if some Christian groups got the chance, they would do the similar things as some Muslims :-/
You say you received a written notice from Catholic Bishops, in effect a piece of paper, against gays in the Czech church. ISIS, led by the islamic scholar Baghdadi, throws gays off rooftops; Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the UAE and several other islamic countries execute gays by law. The violence done to gays in Islamic countries is IMO not similar to what you experienced. Failing to distinguish between the two is likely to invite more violence.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/03/05/dnt-damon-isis-gay-executions.cnn
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/gay-iranian-fights-for-asylum-in-europe/

As to marches for Life, or anti-abortion, that's a basic precept of Catholicism, everywhere. Many Catholics disagree, but it is nonetheless fundamental to the that religion.

...We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-v...ments/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes OCR
  • #21
131
40
it doesn't seem to make US evening news
Whether it makes the news or not, it happens.
 
  • #22
Ivan Seeking
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
7,260
301
In response to a nightclub shooting in Orlando Sunday morning, members of the Florida chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations are urging Muslims to donate blood to those who are injured.

"We condemn this monstrous attack and offer our heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones of all those killed or injured," Rasha Munarak, the CAIR Florida Orlando regional coordinator. "The Muslim community joins our fellow Americans in repudiating anyone or any group that would claim to justify or excuse such an appalling act of violence."
http://www.local10.com/news/muslim-community-condemns-orlando-attack-calls-for-blood-donations'

Munarak was at the initial press conference to offer his sympathies and a show of support from the Florida Muslim community. Probably not mentioned in the right-wing media.
 
  • #23
jim hardy
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
9,839
4,881
  • #24
709
156
You say you received a written notice from Catholic Bishops, in effect a piece of paper, against gays in the Czech church. ISIS, led by the islamic scholar Baghdadi, throws gays off rooftops; Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the UAE and several other islamic countries execute gays by law. The violence done to gays in Islamic countries is IMO not similar to what you experienced. Failing to distinguish between the two is likely to invite more violence.
I would again disagree. Look up Kevin Swanson.
But Islam has a PR problem . Most folks know about islamism only what they hear in the news; actually only the fraction of what they hear that they accept.

Like it or not humans are xenophobic. Those black tents and masks the girls wear scare me more than a KKK hood.
Anybody with that much psychological need to hide seems to me , well, let's just say psychologically aberrant .

Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .
Completely agreed, but I would revise it to say "Until muslims in the public eye start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted."

Unfortunately, the many Muslims who do so don't get time on TV after these events; instead the time is given to Donald Trump who, unfortunately, takes advantage of these events and spreads the xenophobia you talk about. Is this a criticism of our media? It most definitely is.
 
  • Like
Likes gracy and jim hardy
  • #25
Evo
Mentor
23,175
2,940
Until muslims start publicly denouncing the radicals and helping authorities round them up, they will be mistrusted .
That is a terrible shame that Muslims feel that they have to apologize and feel responsible for lunatics that have nothing to do with them. Do Christians apologize every time someone from the Westboro Baptist church does something appalling? Or when 'christians' have killed doctors that perform abortions and have bombed clinics?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#United_States
 
  • Like
Likes gracy, Sophia, billy_joule and 3 others

Related Threads on Mass shooting in Florida

Replies
182
Views
18K
  • Last Post
Replies
17
Views
9K
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
8
Views
2K
Replies
52
Views
4K
  • Last Post
7
Replies
164
Views
12K
Replies
3
Views
6K
Replies
53
Views
8K
Replies
117
Views
14K
  • Last Post
Replies
6
Views
1K
Top