How Can We Make 100! Divisible by 12^{49}?

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In summary, the conversation was about a Q&A game where one person asks a math question and others try to answer it. The first correct answer gets to ask the next question. One of the questions was about finding the least number that must be multiplied to 100! to make it divisible by 12^{49}. The correct answer was 12^{49} / 100!. There was also a question about why mathematicians often forget to specify that they require a whole number solution.
  • #36
eNathan said:
Here is a new question.

Why is the answer to life the universe, and everything = 42? How was this derived?

:rofl"

"What is six multiplied by nine"?

...at least according to Douglas Adams.
 
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  • #37
CRGreathouse said:
"What is six multiplied by nine"?

...at least according to Douglas Adams.

Ye, I read something of that sort. But why 6 and why 9? Why not 6+9? Why not [tex] \frac {6} {9}[/tex] :uhh:
 
  • #38
Please, can we get back on topic and not ruin Gokul's admirable idea with asinine comments.
 
  • #39
Thanks matt,
I'll post a hint if anyone's interested. The problem is a bit out of the range of most high school math students but anyone with a bit of university experience has the tools to solve it. I hope nobody is scared off by it.

Steven
 
  • #40
yes please...some big hints.
 
  • #41
The first of the big hints. This is a linear algebra problem but the vector space you want isn't over the reals. Think about what would be a useful basis and what would be in the span of that basis.
 
  • #42
Does anybody want to post any work in progress or thoughts of a solution? That way at least a next questioner can be chosen. I apologize if I bogged this game down with a poor question :uhh:. I still have feel someone out there can solve it. I solved it as a junior undergraduate and I wasn't that amazing of a junior undergrad.
 
  • #43
Let’s say you have an irrational x in A which is a paired set. You’re sure of 0,x and 1 being in the set. Now, obviously x-0 != 1-x .So there must be at least one additional point in the set (or two points p,q distinct from x such that p-q=x-0) .Now this point is irrational( in the other case, at least one of p & q is irrational). If we go on this way…we get infinitely many irrationals in the set. That , I guess ,amounts to saying that a paired set containing an irrational point contains infinitely many irrationals.
All of this seems too simple to be correct….and what’s infinitely worse is that I don’t see any use of the hint given by snoble...and lastly, why are the biggies like matt and gokul not coming up with smart ideas,like they always do?
:confused: i guess the odds aren't in my favour...THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING WRONG IN THIS!
 
  • #44
I guessed the first and thus set the last one; I haven't even bothered to think about this one really, other than to clarfiy something with the setter.
 
  • #45
mansi you are on the right line of thought but as always the devil is in the details. If you can formalize "If we go on this way" you've basically proven it. Try even just take it to the next stage... why can't there be only two irrationals in a paired set... why can't there be only n irrationals.
 
  • #46
i'm writing down the proof...i'm onto it ,head on...
but there's something i'd like to clarify...
in a paired set ,is it possible to have 3 pairs of elements having the same distance between them...or do we consider it to be exactly two pairs?
 
  • #47
3 of the same distance is totally cool. That's why {0,1/5,2/5,4/5,1} is a paired set even though 1/5 shows up 3 times.
 
  • #48
Ok…so I think I’ve got something (not a proof) here…
Let A be a paired set containing an irrational point, say x. 0,x,1 belong to A and x-0 != 1-x, so there exists at least one additional point which is irrational or two points,at least one of which is irrational.
In the first case, say , the irrational point is p. so you have 0,x,p,1 belonging to A. p –x !=p-0 and p-x !=1-x. The only possibility is that p-x =1-p and p-0=1-x but that contradicts the fact that x is irrational. Therefore, there exists at least one more irrational point in the set….and so on.
In the second case , say you’ve 2 points p and q and WLOG p is irrational.
i.e. we have x-0= p-q .
If q is rational…and if q=1/2 then you don’t have another rational point but taking all the possible combinations of the distances between rational and irrational , you have to have an irrational…
If q != ½ then there’s definitely another rational point z in the set. Consider the difference x-z. We need a pair of elements giving us this difference.
x- z !=p-z (contradicts the fact that z is rational) and x-z !=1-p and x-z !=p-0. Therefore , we’re sure that there’s another irrational in the set…
So , now you have 3 irrationals in the set…x,p and q(say). Consider the difference between the two irrationals q and x. Picking up all possible
Pairs, you get to know that another irrational exists in the set .
Finally,as I said earlier…existence of an irrational in a paired set implies the existence of infinitely many irrationals in the set…
I think this is more like an observation, not a proof in the typical sense…
 
  • #49
so...am i supposed post a new question,or not??
 
  • #50
Give snoble a day or two to respond...
 
  • #51
Unless somebody minds how about we wait until tomorrow morning to see if anyone wants to fill in the details. Otherwise I'll say it's all yours mansi (and I'll post a proof myself for why there are no finite paired sets containing an irrational number)

Steven
 
  • #52
go ahead and ask a new question mansi. I'll post a solution to my problem some time soon (today or tomorrow)
 
  • #53
Hi!

Here is a problem I've been struggling with,so it appears real tough to me.just for the record...i haven't (yet) been able to write down a proof for it...

prove that Z + 2^(1/2)Z is dense in R.
(in words the given set is the set of integers + (square root of 2) times the set of integers and R is is the real line)
 
  • #54
I am thinking you only need to consider the interval [0,1] and study if sqrt(2)*z (mod 1) is dense in the interval. Then, it will look like a circle (by identifying 1 with 0). Explore the consequence if it is not dense (i.e. prove by contradiction).
 
  • #55
i know it's a bad idea but looks like this is going to be the end of this sticky... :grumpy:


anyways...i want to work on the problem i posted...chingkui,could you elaborate the circle part...didn't quite get that...
 
  • #56
the reason to just look at [0,1] is that if it is dense there, then, it is dense in [n,n+1] (by translation) and you know that the set Z+[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]Z is dense in R.

As for n[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] mod(1), let's clarify what it means:
[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] mod(1)=0.4142...=[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]-1
2[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] mod(1)=0.8284...=[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]-2
3[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] mod(1)=0.2426...=[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]-4
So, it is just eliminating the integer part so that the number fall between 0 and 1.
This is what I mean by "circle", it is like you have a circle with circumference 1, you start at point 0, go clockwise for[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] unit, you will pass the point 0 and reach 0.4142..., and go clockwise for another [tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex], you will get to 0.8284...

Now, if [tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]Z (mod 1) is not dense in [0,1], then there are a<b, where a=m[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] (mod 1) and b=n[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] (mod 1) such that nothing between a and b is a multiple of [tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] (mod 1). Note that [tex]\mu[/tex]=b-a>0 is irrational.

The set S={c|a<c<b} is a "forbidden region" (meaning that S is free of multiple of [tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] (mod 1). Then, for any integer k, k[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]+S (mod 1) is also forbidden. Pick any integer M>1/[tex]\mu[/tex], the total length of the M+1 sets S, [tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]+S,..., M[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]+S exceed 1, so, at least two of them, say [tex]S_{p}[/tex]=p[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]+S and [tex]S_{q}[/tex]=q[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex]+S must intersect. If [tex]S_{p}[/tex]!=[tex]S_{q}[/tex], then a boundary point is inside a forbidden region, wlog, say upper boundary of [tex]S_{p}[/tex] is inside [tex]S_{q}[/tex], then, since that boundary point is just b+p[tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] (mod 1), which should not be in any forbidden region, we are left with [tex]S_{p}[/tex]=[tex]S_{q}[/tex]. But this is impossible, since [tex]\sqrt{2}[/tex] is irrational. So, we have a contradiction.
 
  • #57
Where is Steven's proof?
 
  • #59
here's a proof of the question i had posted...thanks to matt grime(he sent me the proof) and i guess chingkui's done the same thing...so he gets to ask the next question...

Let b be the square root of two, and suppose that the numbers
If nb mod(1) are dense in the interval [0,1), then m+nb is dense in R. Proof, let r be in R since there is an n such that nb and r have as many places after the decimal point in common as you care, we just subtract or add an integer onto nb so that m+nb have the same bit before the decimal point too. Thus m+nb and r agree to as much precision as you care.

So it suffices to consider nb mod 1, the bits just after the decimal point.

now, there is a nice map from [0,1) to the unit circle in the complex plane, which we call S^1


t --> exp(2pisqrt(-1)t)


the map induced on the circle by t -->t+b is a rotation by angle 2(pi)b radians.

it is a well known result in dynamical systems that such rigid rotations have dense orbits if and only if b is irrational, and then all orbits are dense.

the orbit of t is just the images of t got by applying the rotation repeatedly. Thus the orbit of 0 is just the set of all points nb mod(1), whcih is dense.

The proof of density isn't too hard, though you need to know about compactness and sequential compactness, at least in the proof I use.


Let r be a rotation by angle 2pib for some irrational b, then the images of t, namely

t+b,t+2b,t+3b... must all be distinct, otherwise

t+mb=t+nb mod 1 for some m=/=n

that is there is an integer k such that

k+mb=nb, implying b is rational.

thus the set of images of t must all be distinct. S^1 is compact, thus there is a convergent subsequence.

Hence given e>0, there are points t+mb and t+nb such that

|nb-mb|<e mod 1.

Let N=n-m, and let p and q be the points

mb and nb mod 1.


Consider the interval between p and q, and its image under rotating by 2pibN. These intervals are no more than e long, and the cover the circle/interval, hence the forward orbit under rotating by 2pibN is dense, thus so is rotating by 2pib, and hence all forward orbits are dense as required.
 
  • #60
Sorry for not posting so long. I have a counting question that is not very difficult (at least after I saw the solution), some of you might know the answer already. If you have already seen it somewhere, please wait 1 or 2 days before posting, let people think about it first. Thanks.

Here is the question:

I was thinking about this problem with a number of friends when we were cutting a birthday cake: How many pieces can be produced at most when we are allowed to cut n times (no need to have equal area/volume).

More precisely, in 2 dimensions, we want to know with n straight lines (extend to infinite at both ends), how many pieces at most can we cut the plane (R^2) into? In this case, the answer is 1+1+2+3+...+n=1+n(n+1)/2.

In 3D, it looks a lot more complicated. Again we have n infinite planes, and we wish to cut R^3 into as many pieces as possible. Does anyone know the answer?

How about in m dimensions? n hyperplanes to cut R^m.
 
  • #61
Dear all,

It has been exactly one month since I post the question, is the question too difficult or just not interesting at all?
If anyone is still interested, here is one hint: the formula in R^3 is a recursive formula that actually depends on the formula in R^2. That is as much hint as I can give, and I am almost writing down the solution.
If this still doesn't generate any interest and response in say 2 weeks, I will probably post another question if everyone agree.
 
  • #62
I think this recursion might be correct, not sure though:
1+1+2+4+7+11+...+(1+n(n-1)/2) = (n+1)(n^2-n+6)/6
 
  • #63
Sorry for replying so late. mustafa is right, and he can ask the next question.
The recursive relation I mentioned is P3(n)=P3(n-1)+P2(n-1)
where P2(n) is the number of pieces with n cut in R^2
and P3(n) is the number of pieces with n cut in R^3
Solving the relations, we can get mustafa's formula.
 
  • #64
Well mustafa?
 
  • #65
Since mustafa doesn't seem to be online anymore, here is a question to revive this thread

SECOND EDIT:

Let [tex] f(\frac{xy}{2}) = \frac{f(x)f(y)}{2} [/tex] for all real [itex] x [/itex] and [itex] y [/itex]. If [tex] f(1)=f'(1) [/itex], Prove that [tex] f(x)=x [/itex] or [tex] f(x)=0 [/tex] for all non zero real [itex] x [/itex].
 
Last edited:
  • #66
Is that the correct question? f(x)=x seems to do the trick a little too obviously.
 
  • #67
matt grime said:
Is that the correct question? f(x)=x seems to do the trick a little too obviously.

Oops, I should have seen that coming.
I was expecting someone to prove that the function has to be of this form from the given conditions, not guess the answer.
 
  • #68
Then add the rejoinder that they must prove that this is the only possible answer (if indeed it is; since i didn't prove it but merely guessed by inspection i can't claim that 'prize'; of course it is explicit that f is differentiable, hence continuous)

EDIT: obviosuly it isn't the only solution: f(x)=0 for all x will do.
 
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  • #69
It doesn't work for arbitrary [itex]c[/itex].

If [itex]f(x)=cx[/itex] then [itex]f(\frac{xy}{2}) = c \frac{xy}{2}[/itex] and [itex]\frac{f(x)f(y)}{2} = c^2 \frac{ xy}2[/itex]. Equating these two yields [itex]c=c^2[/itex] so the only solutions for [itex]c[/itex] are the two Matt has already found.
 
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  • #70
Yes, I see that.
Can you prove that the only possible solutions are
[tex] f(x)=x [/tex]
and
[tex] f(x)=0[/tex]
from the given conditions?
Sorry for the poorly worded question.
 
<h2>1. How do we make 100! divisible by 12<sup>49</sup>?</h2><p>To make 100! divisible by 12<sup>49</sup>, we need to find the highest power of 12 that is a factor of 100!. This can be found by dividing 100 by 12, which gives us 8. This means that 12<sup>8</sup> is the highest power of 12 that is a factor of 100!. To make it divisible by 12<sup>49</sup>, we need to multiply 12<sup>41</sup> to 100!.</p><h2>2. Can we make 100! divisible by 12<sup>49</sup> without changing its value?</h2><p>Yes, we can make 100! divisible by 12<sup>49</sup> without changing its value by multiplying it with 12<sup>41</sup>. This ensures that the value of 100! remains the same, but it becomes divisible by 12<sup>49</sup>.</p><h2>3. Why is it important to make 100! divisible by 12<sup>49</sup>?</h2><p>Making 100! divisible by 12<sup>49</sup> is important because it allows us to easily perform calculations involving large numbers. By making it divisible by 12<sup>49</sup>, we can break down the calculation into smaller, more manageable parts.</p><h2>4. What is the significance of 12<sup>49</sup> in this context?</h2><p>12<sup>49</sup> is the highest power of 12 that is a factor of 100!. This means that it is the smallest number that can divide 100! without leaving a remainder. It is significant because it allows us to make 100! divisible by a large number, making calculations easier.</p><h2>5. Is there a general rule for making a factorial divisible by a large number?</h2><p>Yes, there is a general rule for making a factorial divisible by a large number. We need to find the highest power of the number that is a factor of the factorial, and then multiply it to the factorial. This will ensure that the factorial is divisible by the large number without changing its value.</p>

1. How do we make 100! divisible by 1249?

To make 100! divisible by 1249, we need to find the highest power of 12 that is a factor of 100!. This can be found by dividing 100 by 12, which gives us 8. This means that 128 is the highest power of 12 that is a factor of 100!. To make it divisible by 1249, we need to multiply 1241 to 100!.

2. Can we make 100! divisible by 1249 without changing its value?

Yes, we can make 100! divisible by 1249 without changing its value by multiplying it with 1241. This ensures that the value of 100! remains the same, but it becomes divisible by 1249.

3. Why is it important to make 100! divisible by 1249?

Making 100! divisible by 1249 is important because it allows us to easily perform calculations involving large numbers. By making it divisible by 1249, we can break down the calculation into smaller, more manageable parts.

4. What is the significance of 1249 in this context?

1249 is the highest power of 12 that is a factor of 100!. This means that it is the smallest number that can divide 100! without leaving a remainder. It is significant because it allows us to make 100! divisible by a large number, making calculations easier.

5. Is there a general rule for making a factorial divisible by a large number?

Yes, there is a general rule for making a factorial divisible by a large number. We need to find the highest power of the number that is a factor of the factorial, and then multiply it to the factorial. This will ensure that the factorial is divisible by the large number without changing its value.

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