• Support PF! Buy your school textbooks, materials and every day products via PF Here!

Matrices, Transposes, and Inverses. - Help?

  • Thread starter cAm
  • Start date

cAm

49
0
Matrices, Transposes, and Inverses. --- Help?

Say, you have Matrix A, Y, and a matrix of coefficients C not neccissarily square, and A * C = Y. To solve this, i would think to multiply both sides by the inverse of A, but since it's not necessarily square that won't work. I've seen a solution that im having some questions about. It multiplies both sides by ATranspose, then it multiplies both sides by (A * ATranspose) ^-1. I think i understand that multiplication by ATranspose, so as to get it into a square matrix. Then, i guess i understand the multiplication by the inverse of it, but i think i read somewhere that it is particularly easier to take the inverse of A * Atranspose. I need the simplest method possible, because i have to code a program to solve this equation for me, in C++. I can figure out the code, if i can find a step by step process to finding the inverse, but im really confused regarding taking inverses in general, and if it's easier if you multiply it by the transpose first.

I'd appreciate any help, and, if possible, i need this kinda soon, but even if the deadline passes, i still want to understand, for myself how it's done.
 

lurflurf

Homework Helper
2,417
122
It is not easier. The reason this is done is that A may not have an inverse owing either to A being singular and square or A being not square. In many of those situations transpose(A)*A has an inverse. Note that this process does not always solve the original equation, but is the "best" we can due. In particular this process really solves (A*C-Y)^2=min((A*C-Y)^2). Say we wanted to solve
-a+b=-1
b=.001
a+b=1
in matrix form A*C=Y
A={{-1,1},{0,1},{1,1}}
Y={-1,.001,1}
we find inverse(transpose(A)*A)*transpose(A)*Y={1,.001/3}
This does not solve the original, but is a best guess given our information.
 
1,349
2
Gaussian elimination
 

cAm

49
0

lurflurf

Homework Helper
2,417
122
cAm said:
bad deal for computer code, and bad deal for dealing with summation.
Gaussian elimination is very straight forward to code what is you trouble? What do you mean about summations?
 
88
0
cAm said:
Say, you have Matrix A, Y, and a matrix of coefficients C not neccissarily square, and A * C = Y. To solve this, i would think to multiply both sides by the inverse of A, but since it's not necessarily square that won't work. I've seen a solution that im having some questions about. It multiplies both sides by ATranspose, then it multiplies both sides by (A * ATranspose) ^-1. I think i understand that multiplication by ATranspose, so as to get it into a square matrix. Then, i guess i understand the multiplication by the inverse of it, but i think i read somewhere that it is particularly easier to take the inverse of A * Atranspose. I need the simplest method possible, because i have to code a program to solve this equation for me, in C++. I can figure out the code, if i can find a step by step process to finding the inverse, but im really confused regarding taking inverses in general, and if it's easier if you multiply it by the transpose first.

I'd appreciate any help, and, if possible, i need this kinda soon, but even if the deadline passes, i still want to understand, for myself how it's done.
to determine (square) matrix inverses via computer algorithm, try Cramer's Rule.
it just involves evaluating determinants of square matrices, altho the method would require evaluating several different determinants for each matrix inversion required.
the computer algorithm for determinant evaluation can be programmed once with a "function" (or "subroutine", etc.) and then this same algorithm called over and over again.
 
Last edited:

cAm

49
0
lurflurf said:
Gaussian elimination is very straight forward to code what is you trouble? What do you mean about summations?

If you look through the link i posted in my last, you'll see there are many sums from i = 1 to n, and i'm not really sure how to cancel those out using gaussian elimination.

I'll look into that geosonel, thanks.
 
1,349
2
thought cramer's rule was bad compared to guassian...you still need teh inverse of a sqaure matrix...the idea (can't remember the process but its on the website you showed...is to makea square matrix so you can take the inverse...let me use the y=Ax notationa not the y=Xa notation they have there...

so how do you make a squrae matrix from Amn==> Amn*Amn^T thus what they have there is
to multiply both sides by A^T
A^T*y=A^T*A*x ...and then apply the inverse function to get X(that is to apply gaussian or which ever you choose). Thus you will be calculating
(A^T*A)^-1*A^T*y=x to solve for x..and hence you still need the inverse of a square function with this method...
 
88
0
neurocomp2003 said:
thought cramer's rule was bad compared to guassian...you still need teh inverse of a sqaure matrix...the idea (can't remember the process but its on the website you showed...is to makea square matrix so you can take the inverse...let me use the y=Ax notationa not the y=Xa notation they have there...

so how do you make a squrae matrix from Amn==> Amn*Amn^T thus what they have there is
to multiply both sides by A^T
A^T*y=A^T*A*x ...and then apply the inverse function to get X(that is to apply gaussian or which ever you choose). Thus you will be calculating
(A^T*A)^-1*A^T*y=x to solve for x..and hence you still need the inverse of a square function with this method...
you mention several interesting topics:
(in all that follows, matrix A is assumed to be square and non-singular)
Question #1: how is Cramer's Rule applied to the system Ax = y related to the ACTUAL inverse matrix A(-1)?
Answer #1: in fact, Cramer's Rule is 1 of 2 related methods for matrix inversion using only Determinants and related constructs. One method (Cramer's) gives the solution "x" to Ax = y directly, without explicitly generating A(-1). The other, called the "Scaled Adjoint Matrix", generates the inverse matrix A(-1) using only the Determinant of A and determinant-related constructs called "cofactors". The latter "cofactors" are determinants of certain submatrices of the original A matrix. Again, each method has its place in a mathematical toolkit, depending on what's required:
Cramer's Rule ---- directly gives the solution "x" to Ax = y
Scaled Adjoint Matrix ---- gives the inverse matrix A(-1)

Question #2: which is better, Cramer's Rule or Gaussian Elimination?
Answer #2: of course, one can beg the question ... what is meant by "better"? ... easier to program, faster computation, more accurate ?
it's indeed difficult to generalize; however, many might agree with the following:
Cramer's Rule is "better" to use for smaller matrices, say 4x4 and smaller.
Gaussian Elimination is "better" to use for larger matrices, say > 4x4
Of course, your mileage may vary.
 
Last edited:

lurflurf

Homework Helper
2,417
122
cAm said:
If you look through the link i posted in my last, you'll see there are many sums from i = 1 to n, and i'm not really sure how to cancel those out using gaussian elimination.

I'll look into that geosonel, thanks.
Those sums are linear equations, thus gaussian elimination applies. You can chose the sum equations or the matrix equations as they are equivalent. You do not need both. How large of systems are you intending to use? I would recomend against crammers rule unless the systems are very small. What degree polynomial are you fitting? Also writing determinant code for large matricies is not easier than gaussian elimination anyway.
All that is needed is to find
[tex](A^tA)^{-1}A^tY[/tex]
so get the inverse with some gaussian elimination like algorithim
The trick is to think the procedure out carefuly. At each step what should the program do next. Also what types will you use float? double? a custom tpe? Using arrays? or Pointers? You could also side step the inverse and solve the system with something like LU decomposition.
 
88
0
lurflurf said:
What degree polynomial are you fitting? Also writing determinant code for large matricies is not easier than gaussian elimination anyway.
agreed, Cramer's Rule does not scale "nicely" for larger matrices.
however, for a 3x3, the following line of code implemented in a callable function is all that's needed:

Det(m(i,j)) = m11*(m22*m33 - m32*m23) - m21*(m12*m33 - m32*m13) + m31*(m12*m23 - m22*m13)

this function would be called 4 times (each time with a different array m(i,j) ) to compute the solution "x" to Ax = y where A is 3x3 non-singular.
 
Last edited:

lurflurf

Homework Helper
2,417
122
geosonel said:
agreed, Cramer's Rule does not scale "nicely" for larger matrices.
however, for a 3x3, the following line of code implemented in a callable function is all that's needed:
If 4x4 and smaller matrices are all that is needed, might as well just input the general inverse. Or use crammer, but that would be a trivial problem.
 

cAm

49
0
well, i'm looking at 50+ degree polynomials... what method do you think would work best for those?

(yeah, this is a bit of a crazy project...)
 

lurflurf

Homework Helper
2,417
122
cAm said:
well, i'm looking at 50+ degree polynomials... what method do you think would work best for those?

(yeah, this is a bit of a crazy project...)
Gaussian Elimination or a variation (Gauss-Jordon, partial pivots, full pivots ect.) 50-100 degree polynomials should not be bad. You are using a computer, not doing it by hand. Once you have your functions in order, the only limitations on the degree, will be running time, and memory usage. How will you get data to the program? I hope not by keying it in.
GaussianElimination mathworld entry
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GaussianElimination.html
A comparison of methods
http://ceee.rice.edu/Books/CS/chapter5/cost6.html
 

cAm

49
0
lurflurf said:
Gaussian Elimination or a variation (Gauss-Jordon, partial pivots, full pivots ect.) 50-100 degree polynomials should not be bad. You are using a computer, not doing it by hand. Once you have your functions in order, the only limitations on the degree, will be running time, and memory usage. How will you get data to the program? I hope not by keying it in.
GaussianElimination mathworld entry
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GaussianElimination.html
A comparison of methods
http://ceee.rice.edu/Books/CS/chapter5/cost6.html
thanks.

and, no, heh, no way in hell are we keying in the data. we have a point scanner scanning in points in 3space, and our program finds the edges of the object, and finds the curves of the edges via regression.


edit: that's great, it takes it 2.9889 x 10^138 centuries to do a 100x100 matrix using cramer's rule.
 
Last edited:

Related Threads for: Matrices, Transposes, and Inverses. - Help?

  • Posted
Replies
4
Views
985
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • Posted
Replies
11
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • Posted
Replies
3
Views
896
  • Posted
Replies
8
Views
5K
Replies
4
Views
1K
Replies
5
Views
4K

Physics Forums Values

We Value Quality
• Topics based on mainstream science
• Proper English grammar and spelling
We Value Civility
• Positive and compassionate attitudes
• Patience while debating
We Value Productivity
• Disciplined to remain on-topic
• Recognition of own weaknesses
• Solo and co-op problem solving
Top