Maxwell 3D (ANSOFT)

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  • #26
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Power loss is available, however, core loss is far away from accurate. The core loss is not from BH curve, but calculated based on flux density and frequency. You need define the core loss data set in the material property before you can do core loss.

strandedloss may be good enough for most cases, but it is really up to the problem you want to solve. If you want to consider eddy effect in the winding, then you have to use solidloss, which may not be possible in certain cases due to the 3D model may be to complicate.

I don't know the error code. If you don't have any error when do some other simulations, then it may be due to the model you have.

Hi Fuxuje;

so you said that stranded , solid and core losses are avaible for me. i want to calculate power loss on coil so stranded loss is the same mean with this loss or isnt it? also i have an error on maxwell '': Unexpected program error:Please contact Ansoft LLC.Code(1000)'' what does it mean fuxuje . do you know?
 
  • #27
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but i didnt see where power loss was measure. only i saw stranded ,copper, core,strandedlossR links on Loss part in maxwell. for example can i calculate a power loss on coil or on other material? i want to solve this.
 
  • #28
gerbi
Gold Member
179
13
but i didnt see where power loss was measure. only i saw stranded ,copper, core,strandedlossR links on Loss part in maxwell. for example can i calculate a power loss on coil or on other material? i want to solve this.

What materials do you have in your design ? Coil (copper) and core (iron) ? Any more elements ?

Assume zero conductivity of core material (iron). Only thing left is the copper. All the losses you will observe (stranded, solid) will be in copper.

EDIT:
The other method is using Maxwell calculator. There you can calculate losses in element you desire in whole time spectrum you have solved.

Integrate Ohmic-Loss in desired Volume and Time. The drawback of this method is that, you need to calculate ohmic losses in every time moment and process and plot it manually outside calculator (unless you have written a script to do the job).
 
Last edited:
  • #29
100
5
For a transformer or inductor, total power loss is the sum of copper loss of the windings and core loss. You need add them together.

but i didnt see where power loss was measure. only i saw stranded ,copper, core,strandedlossR links on Loss part in maxwell. for example can i calculate a power loss on coil or on other material? i want to solve this.
 
  • #30
100
5
Gerbi, question to you. When plot loss vs time, what value should be taken, RMS or AVG? I noticed AVG value of strandedloss is more close to I^2R value calculated by hand.

What materials do you have in your design ? Coil (copper) and core (iron) ? Any more elements ?

Assume zero conductivity of core material (iron). Only thing left is the copper. All the losses you will observe (stranded, solid) will be in copper.

EDIT:
The other method is using Maxwell calculator. There you can calculate losses in element you desire in whole time spectrum you have solved.

Integrate Ohmic-Loss in desired Volume and Time. The drawback of this method is that, you need to calculate ohmic losses in every time moment and process and plot it manually outside calculator (unless you have written a script to do the job).
 
  • #31
25
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Gerbi;

i use vacuum for region, ferrite and copper. Thats my metarial for use in project.
but u say that maxwell calculator. Where is that. in solution data or results . firstly you say stranded loss is nearly assume power loss,isnt it? am i understand true?
but i want to solve power loss on coil and it made by copper originally. for you tell
when we calculate stranded loss also we measure the power loss on caoil. because you said that conductivity of iron very high.
 
  • #32
25
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Fuxue;

i know that i saw a table stranden and copper losses on results from create report part. although i saw a graph like stable on 300 W. At 0. second it was 300 W and not
change any time,Fixed value and 300 W. Is it true solution for me?
 
  • #33
100
5
You need to make it clear. As I mentioned, normally power loss is the sum of copper loss of the windings and core loss. If you only want to know the power loss in copper, then it is either solidloss or strandedloss in Maxwell.

Right click on "Field Overlays", you will see a menu item "Calculator", where you will calculate many parameters, but it is not very intuitive.

For the core, if it is iron/steel, because its high conductivity, so there will be extra coreloss involved. Because you use ferrite, then it is not an issue especially if you don't want to include core loss in your project.

Gerbi;

i use vacuum for region, ferrite and copper. Thats my metarial for use in project.
but u say that maxwell calculator. Where is that. in solution data or results . firstly you say stranded loss is nearly assume power loss,isnt it? am i understand true?
but i want to solve power loss on coil and it made by copper originally. for you tell
when we calculate stranded loss also we measure the power loss on caoil. because you said that conductivity of iron very high.
 
Last edited:
  • #34
100
5
I don't know what is your excitation, an AC current?

Copper loss plotted vs time is normally not linear if your excitation is AC, say sine wave. So you need take average value of that plot over full time range.

If you excitation is DC, then the loss will be a straight line.

Fuxue;

i know that i saw a table stranden and copper losses on results from create report part. although i saw a graph like stable on 300 W. At 0. second it was 300 W and not
change any time,Fixed value and 300 W. Is it true solution for me?
 
  • #35
25
0
Fuxue;

i want to know that. i must be done transient analyses,arent i?

so can i apply ac current ? also i applied in windings and current value is a parametre(current1= 100*sin(w*t) ) is it true or false. Also i applied 500 Volt dc voltage in Winding part and 5 ohm resistance value. Is it ok?
 
  • #36
100
5
yes, you need to use transient solution in order to get losses.

Excitation 100*sin(W*t) is OK (I guess that should be 100*sin(2*pi*60*time), if frequency is 60Hz, for example)

But I don't know if you can overlap a dc voltage on top of the current excitation. I have not done that so far.

Fuxue;

i want to know that. i must be done transient analyses,arent i?

so can i apply ac current ? also i applied in windings and current value is a parametre(current1= 100*sin(w*t) ) is it true or false. Also i applied 500 Volt dc voltage in Winding part and 5 ohm resistance value. Is it ok?
 
  • #37
100
5
Also, when using voltage excitation, and your winding is specified as stranded, then Maxwell doesn't solve the resistance of the winding coil. The resistance you entered is the winding resistance of the coil, so it will be the same as you calculate the current V/R, and copper loss I^2R by hand. There will be no need to use Maxwell.
 
  • #38
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so you say that dont use maxwell but i can see lots of map in power loss . For example stranded loss copper loss core loss they are avaible i think . in addition What do think about calculate power loss on coil is equal to stranded loss or copper lose.
 
  • #39
100
5
Sorry, but I don't understand your question very well.

In general,

If your copper winding is specified as stranded, and you use Voltage excitation, then there is no need to use Maxwell to calculate the copper loss, which is simply V/R = I, and loss is I^2R. Here V and R are specified by you as input, and you already know ahead.

If your copper winding is specified as stranded, and you use current excitation, then you will get strandedloss from Maxwell for your copper winding. However, if you can calculate the resistance of your winding using the length and cross section of your copper, then you will get the copper loss by I^2R since your current is known factor. This I^2R loss will be the same as you will get in Maxwell (the strandedloss).

If your copper winding is specified as solid, then you will get solidloss in Maxwell. In this case, the Maxwell will simulate the conduction path resistance and give out copper loss. When you specify your copper winding as solid, then you have to draw the real winding. Meaning if you have 10 turns, then you have to drawing real 10 turns. If you have 100 turns, you have to draw 100 turns. But it is not possible for Maxwell to simulate a 100 turns winding unless you have a very powerful machine with lots of memory.

So you have to decide how you want to specify your winding (solid or stranded) in order to know if using Maxwell makes sense to you or not.

so you say that dont use maxwell but i can see lots of map in power loss . For example stranded loss copper loss core loss they are avaible i think . in addition What do think about calculate power loss on coil is equal to stranded loss or copper lose.
 
  • #40
3
0
Dear all
I'm a new user and I need help about maxwell 2D transient.
i want to simulate a linear induction motor using maxwell 14.
when i define a band for transient state and then run maxwell,an error occures.
error is:"there might be an isolated hole in the band"

how i can remove this error?
sorry for my English;
thank you;
 
  • #41
25
0
Fuxue i'm now understand that everything you told me. i use copper windings stranded and voltage excitations on coil. So that is very senseless to calculate power . Because i would give the value of the voltage and resistance but i want to explain that i gave this excitations and i could saw the losses do you understand. for example i would give v=100 V and R= 5 ohm so İ = 20 A but if i gave V= 100*sin(W*t) i could see the losses because of the AC variables. Do you understand?

if i have wrong things you can say me... but what do you suggest me to solve?
Because this is my thesis so important for me and i'm grateful to you very very thank you Fuxue
 
  • #42
100
5
I have not done anything like this and may not be that helpful. But based on my understanding, a band object needs to be a sheet in 2D or a region in 3D without any interruption. The band object should not interfere with anything else. It is between the moving objects and the stationary ones.

The error sounds like the band object is discontinuous due to some interruption.

Dear all
I'm a new user and I need help about maxwell 2D transient.
i want to simulate a linear induction motor using maxwell 14.
when i define a band for transient state and then run maxwell,an error occures.
error is:"there might be an isolated hole in the band"

how i can remove this error?
sorry for my English;
thank you;
 
  • #43
100
5
Let's see the copper ohmic loss;

For DC, V=100V, R =5 ohm, we have I=20A, and power loss is 2000Watts.

For AC = 100* Sin(W*t), in this case, 100 is peak current, you need take the rms value for power loss, so Vrms = 70.7. For R = 5ohm, the power loss is , 999.70Watts.

In order to have the same equivalent DC current 100A, the AC peak current need to be 141.4A.

For AC current, if the wire is multi-stranded, then the current density is uniform and it will have the same power loss if the AC rms value is equal to the DC current value. It doesn't matter it is AC or DC because the current density is uniform.

Now, for AC input, if you want to consider skin effect/eddy current at high frequency (say a few MHz), and want to show the different power loss between DC and AC, you need to specify the copper as solid, not stranded, in Maxwell. As I said, in order to specify the copper as solid, you have to draw your winding turns. If it is 10 turns or so, then it will be OK. Otherwise, it is not practical to draw a few hundred turns in Maxwell.



Fuxue i'm now understand that everything you told me. i use copper windings stranded and voltage excitations on coil. So that is very senseless to calculate power . Because i would give the value of the voltage and resistance but i want to explain that i gave this excitations and i could saw the losses do you understand. for example i would give v=100 V and R= 5 ohm so İ = 20 A but if i gave V= 100*sin(W*t) i could see the losses because of the AC variables. Do you understand?

if i have wrong things you can say me... but what do you suggest me to solve?
Because this is my thesis so important for me and i'm grateful to you very very thank you Fuxue
 
  • #44
gerbi
Gold Member
179
13
Gerbi, question to you. When plot loss vs time, what value should be taken, RMS or AVG? I noticed AVG value of strandedloss is more close to I^2R value calculated by hand.

According to definitions, real power is calculated as average per cycle not rms.
From my expierence, as you've said, maxwell avg power and hand calcs are pretty close in value.
 
  • #45
25
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Dear Fuxue;

now i'm understand and i want to see eddy current/skin effect. So power loss may be
different from the when we use stranded AC current values. So you suggest me to give Copper windings are solid current value,arent it? so i must draw real turns.

but i want to send you subject of my thesis :http://www.maglev.ir/eng/documents/papers/conferences/maglev2006/topic5/IMT_CP_M2006_T5_11.pdf

and i use a document from ansoft ,name was; Ansoft Maxwell 11 3D UserGuide you can see how did i draw coil.(page 149 150 151).
 
  • #46
gerbi
Gold Member
179
13
Dear Fuxue;

now i'm understand and i want to see eddy current/skin effect. So power loss may be
different from the when we use stranded AC current values. So you suggest me to give Copper windings are solid current value,arent it? so i must draw real turns.

but i want to send you subject of my thesis :http://www.maglev.ir/eng/documents/papers/conferences/maglev2006/topic5/IMT_CP_M2006_T5_11.pdf

and i use a document from ansoft ,name was; Ansoft Maxwell 11 3D UserGuide you can see how did i draw coil.(page 149 150 151).

The way to draw a coil taken from Maxwell User Guide is good for stranded currents.
Yes, you need to create every turn to observe eddy effect. How many turns do you have ?
 
  • #47
25
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Gerbi;


i have lots of turns but firstly i dont know how to draw this turns. draw by a helix or spiral? i realy dont know but i made turns by helix a month ago. Gerbi my problem
is power loss and frequency. I am working in nearly 20 KHz. So What do suggest me to see power loss on coil. Fuxue said that If i wanted to see Eddy current and differ
between AC to DC power losses ,i must be draw turns. He said that me you can see.

İndeed ,The first problem for me power loss. so What do think, i have to draw solid turns or i m continue to Stranded Current windings
 
  • #48
gerbi
Gold Member
179
13
Gerbi;


i have lots of turns but firstly i dont know how to draw this turns. draw by a helix or spiral? i realy dont know but i made turns by helix a month ago. Gerbi my problem
is power loss and frequency. I am working in nearly 20 KHz. So What do suggest me to see power loss on coil. Fuxue said that If i wanted to see Eddy current and differ
between AC to DC power losses ,i must be draw turns. He said that me you can see.

İndeed ,The first problem for me power loss. so What do think, i have to draw solid turns or i m continue to Stranded Current windings

To observe eddy current losses in AC do as Fuxue Jin said. Draw solid turns of copper.

Lots of turns you say. I see no way to analyze this device in full geometry.
You need to reduce number of turns to pretty low number (it depends on computer CPU and RAM memory) or you won't be able to create proper mesh to calculate this accurately.
 
  • #49
25
0
To observe eddy current losses in AC do as Fuxue Jin said. Draw solid turns of copper.

Lots of turns you say. I see no way to analyze this device in full geometry.
You need to reduce number of turns to pretty low number (it depends on computer CPU and RAM memory) or you won't be able to create proper mesh to calculate this accurately.





but i want to know that how can i draw this turns . draw helix is usefull or not.
i think 1 turn even enough for me but HOW? in addition gerbi can i send you my maxwell project by mail or other ways. may be it is very easy to see what i do
 
  • #50
gerbi
Gold Member
179
13
but i want to know that how can i draw this turns . draw helix is usefull or not.
i think 1 turn even enough for me but HOW? in addition gerbi can i send you my maxwell project by mail or other ways. may be it is very easy to see what i do

Tricky job. Coil will be made of rectangular or round conductor ? It's wounded on rectangular core, right ?

If this is rectangular wire then just draw rectangles as part of conductor, merge all and fillet the edges.

If this is round wire: draw a cylinder of required lenght and diameter of straight part of wire. Then duplicate it around axis (90 deg). You'll have two cylinders perpedicular with one common corner (there is a hole but it can be filled with spherical element). Merge all and you have one element ready.

I don't know how good are you in drawing in maxwell. There are pretty many options there (merging, substracting, splitting.. - planes can be changed) so take your time.

I'm sorry but currently I'm pretty busy with some other projects.
 

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