Brain of Male Artists: Why Are Most Legendary Artists Men?

[tommyburgey]

In terms of the brain why is it that the vast majority of legendary artists are men?

 

[Math Is Hard]

I suppose it has to do more with social and cultural factors than some innate biological reason. "Legendary" might have something to do with who gets to do the judging, as well as who gets an opportunity to be judged.

"This is so good, you would not know it was painted by a woman."
-- Hans Hoffmann about his student Lee Krasner, 1937

 

[RetardedBastard]

I suppose it has to do more with social and cultural factors than some innate biological reason.

suurrreee, keep telling yourself that! :)

 

[Evo]

Back through history, women weren't educated, they were not allowed to apprentice and they were not allowed to work as painters or sculptors, this was the world of men.

RetardedBastard, I suggest you start learning history. A woman would never be commisioned to do art. She would never have been given the opportunity.

 

[Moonbear]

This thread started out in Mind and Brain, but as should be clear from the replies, it's not really related so much to the brain as to the social environment and history, thus I've moved this over here.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, I think there are some innate assumptions in the initial post that need to be teased out and defined before getting to the bottom of this.

 

[RetardedBastard]

An artist can be exposed to painting solvents, resins, latex and the components that make up the paint itself including lead and zinc. I'm not sure about women in general, but expectant mothers (even in the past) might have been aware of some of the adverse health effects that such a hobby/profession might have on newborns and stayed away from it. Not that I have any studies to back me up.

 

[RetardedBastard]

RetardedBastard, I suggest you start learning history. A woman would never be commisioned to do art. She would never have been given the opportunity.

I know. I'm just stupid.

 

[tommyburgey]

I suppose it has to do more with social and cultural factors than some innate biological reason. "Legendary" might have something to do with who gets to do the judging, as well as who gets an opportunity to be judged.[/I]

Why is it so difficult to admit that males and females are biologically different, surely some female artists would have broken the mould if they were fantastic.
When a female has a biological advantage it isn't taboo (women have better social skills and can empathise with people's feelings better than men) but if a male has an advantage it is taboo.

 

[Evo]

I know. I'm just stupid.

No, but hitting some history books or websites couldn't hurt. :tongue:

 

[DaveC426913]

I know. I'm just stupid.

Not at all.
You came with a question. You came away having learned something new.

If that's "stupid", I wouldn't want to be "smart".

 

[rewebster]

I think most 'normal' people think that they are 'artistic' in some way--verbally, visually, physically, etc. ---even an autistic can be artistic.

To me, it can be a developmental aspect of intelligence

 

[RetardedBastard]

Why is it so difficult to admit that males and females are biologically different, surely some female artists would have broken the mould if they were fantastic.

I don't think anyone here has said that the brains of the two sexes are biologically the same. The unknown is probably how little or how big the differences in our brains contributes to our ability to make great art.

When a female has a biological advantage it isn't taboo (women have better social skills and can empathise with people's feelings better than men) but if a male has an advantage it is taboo.

Aww, and does that hurt your feelings?

 

[rewebster]

hey--a woman could have been the first ('cave') artist---she was the one sittin' around the cave with nothing to look at on the walls

 

[tommyburgey]

The unknown is probably how little or how big the differences in our brains contributes to our ability to make great art.

Thanks for telling me what you don't know retarded bastard.

does that hurt your feelings?

yes...

 

[Evo]

Here is a study on artistic abilities

Conclusions show art as not having strong female or male dominance. Males' and females' drawing skills in particular show mixed percentages of success.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...Search_SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=ED193314

And another

Researchers examined 112 subjects in the fall of 1987 using the Revised Eliot Spatial Dimensionality Test Battery. The data showed no significant sex differences between male and female students.

I loved this statement

Possibly, the often observed sex differences on spatial tests that seem to favor the male subjects do not so differentiate in professional art school. Experts have identified such spatial skills as components of general fluid cognitive abilities, perceptual field independence, and the ability to perceive three dimensional spatial relationships. All these elements would seem to be the key skills for success in art school.

I guess talent is not a requirement.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...Search_SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=ED369681

 

[rewebster]

Well, let's take the Taliban, for example. They (the Taliban) are probably more closely related to the caveman than the chimpanzee-----do the Taliban allow their women to do 'art'?


Then, follow the caveman 'idea' down until the industrial revolution, which frees up women to be able to do 'more' --(remember that the Taliban haven't really embraced the industrial revolution yet)----and that's why (I think) more men than women are recognized (still, to some degree)

-----------------------
(After the first cave woman did her art on the wall the first time, the cave 'husband' probably told her to sit down, and that "he" could do it better)

 

[Math Is Hard]

Why is it so difficult to admit that males and females are biologically different, surely some female artists would have broken the mould if they were fantastic.

I never said that male and female brains weren't biologically different, only that I did not believe that biological differences were the answer to your question. Please do not put words in my mouth.

 

[tommyburgey]

I did not believe that biological differences were the answer to your question.

Do you know that or do you just believe?

 

[zoobyshoe]

In terms of the brain why is it that the vast majority of legendary artists are men?

Men have more legend-activated neurons in their frontal and temporal lobes.
...
In terms of artistic ability and sensibility I think women in all societies have always been way ahead of men in their grasp of line, form, rhythm, color, and texture: the omnipresent ingredients of art. They tend to express this constantly in their personal mode of dress, and how they decorate their environments, not to mention whatever more obvious crafts are traditionally the province of women in their particular culture. This translates to traditional Western forms of fine art with no problem. Women paint, draw, sculpt, etc just as well as men. As soon as men accepted the notion of women in Art famous woman artists started to appear: Georgia O'Keefe, Frida Kahlo, etc.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Do you know that or do you just believe?

Believe for the moment. There is always the chance that something will emerge that explains the phenomenon in terms of biology, but for now, we don't have any evidence for it. Besides, deciding that a painting is legendary is a very subjective judgment. I think that Camille Claudel is legendary. You may not. In the end, it's up to whoever edits and publishes the art history textbooks.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Men have more legend-activated neurons in their frontal and temporal lobes.

:rofl::rofl:

 

[tommyburgey]

There must be a better reason than society limiting women from becoming brilliant artists (composers aswell). Society didn't stop some farm girl from leading french armies to war in the 15th century why would it stop them paint or compose? I think everyone is too scared that a real expert opinion might hurt someones feelings (that's why it's been moved to social sciences).

 

[rewebster]

There must be a better reason than society limiting women from becoming brilliant artists (composers aswell). Society didn't stop some farm girl from leading french armies to war in the 15th century why would it stop them paint or compose? I think everyone is too scared that a real expert opinion might hurt someones feelings (that's why it's been moved to social sciences).

some think she was a little 'off' though

 

[rewebster]

:rofl::rofl:

temporal lobes (maybe)


(that's one thing I've heard some women complain about some men)

 

[zoobyshoe]

There must be a better reason than society limiting women from becoming brilliant artists (composers aswell). Society didn't stop some farm girl from leading french armies to war in the 15th century why would it stop them paint or compose? I think everyone is too scared that a real expert opinion might hurt someones feelings (that's why it's been moved to social sciences).

Go ahead and post the "real expert opinion". If it contains hard science, I'm sure they'll move this back to Mind and Brain for discussion.

 

[tommyburgey]

"Go ahead and post the "real expert opinion"."

I think you misunderstand...i'm asking the question.

 

[zoobyshoe]

"Go ahead and post the "real expert opinion"."

I think you misunderstand...i'm asking the question.

You think there are neurological experts reading Mind and Brain who can answer your quetion neurologically but who have been prevented from seeing it by its being moved?

 

[rewebster]

Where's the 'artistic' lobe of the brain?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Where's the 'artistic' lobe of the brain?

You're barking up the wrong lobe. It's the legendary lobe that's key here.

 

[rewebster]

You're barking up the wrong lobe. It's the legendary lobe that's key here.

(pre-1900)

Most Explorers, most writers, most theorists, most mountain climbers, most doctors, most business owners, etc.

(Is there a pattern forming?)

 

[Math Is Hard]

There must be a better reason than society limiting women from becoming brilliant artists (composers aswell). Society didn't stop some farm girl from leading french armies to war in the 15th century why would it stop them paint or compose?

I think you raise a great point here. Why did one young woman succeed in getting what she wanted where others failed? What made her the exception to the rule, and what kept others from following her example? I guess it could have been that unpleasant burning at the stake thing, but still..

I think everyone is too scared that a real expert opinion might hurt someones feelings (that's why it's been moved to social sciences).

Definitely doesn't hurt my feelings. I'm not an artist, just a simple cognitive science student. But the experts are having a hard time with this one, too. I think this research is important, but it's also very important to watch out for confounds. In fact, studies that involve gender differences as an independent variable are called "quasi-experiments", because when you divide subjects up by gender, they are no longer randomly assigned to conditions. Gender carries a lot of cultural baggage. For instance, if we do a study that finds girls prefer pink and boys prefer blue, should we attribute that to something innate, or to the possibility that they have had predominantly repeated exposures to one or the other color in their early years?

There have been some behavioral studies that show that boys do better on certain spatial rotation tasks, and there is evidence that girls have better communication between right and left brain hemispheres. These are both very good areas of study, because if we do find significant differences at this level over repeated testing, it will help tremendously in developing teaching methods for both girls and boys.

But when we get to the broad question of artistic talent and whether it is deemed legendary, it automatically calls into question who the judges are and who was deemed fit to be judged. We just can't ignore social/cultural factors.

 

[isabeau]

speaking as an actual artist - there are more women in art school now then men ( at least the one I went too)

it is a Field in history that has been closed to women. As was poetry. Women of the Victorian age were told to write in secret. Education wasn't as available and promotion of work as well.

there is still an underlying difference in treatment , but the gap is closer. Think of it now as how a auto sales person treats a man as compared to a woman. Both can buy the car but the treatment a lot of times is condescending to women. Same as getting a car repaired.

Why this exists ? I don't know since women brains are more artistically and verbally inclined where men are more prone to math yet both are similar in IQ.

http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1261"

 

[opus]

Here's a good answer I managed to google:

"The question "Why have there been no great women artists?" has led us to the conclusion, so far, that art is not a free, autonomous activity of a super-endowed individual, "Influenced" by previous artists, and, more vaguely and superficially, by "social forces," but rather, that the total situation of art making, both in terms of the development of the art maker and in the nature and quality of the work of art itself, occur in a social situation, are integral elements of this social structure, and are mediated and determined by specific and definable social institutions, be they art academies, systems of patronage, mythologies of the divine creator, artist as he-man or social outcast."

http://www.csupomona.edu/~plin/ews410/nogreatwomen.html

 

[falc39]

Two things - Testosterone and sexual transmutation.

Now granted, we are talking about reaching 'legendary' abilities in creativity. I'm thinking in the levels of Mozart and such. Those two are the scientific answers. The problem is researchers only see this from the scientific point of view, very rarely from a spiritual point of view, and even rarer from a mythological/archeoastrology point of view. Sorry, but I have to be brief here. Maybe I can explain it more later.

As for an artist today? There are no rules, and most art is not aligned with the heavens anymore. Which is why there is no Mozart, Bach, shakespeares, etc anymore.