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Missile tests

  1. Jul 9, 2008 #1
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  3. Jul 9, 2008 #2

    Astronuc

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    What I heard today was that Iran tested missiles in response to some Israeli military exercises that were perceived to be in preparation for an attack on Iran.

    I believe I heard one of the Iranian ministers indicated that if Iran is attacked, they will launch missiles at Tel Aviv.

    Some people need to chill out. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Jul 10, 2008 #3

    Art

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    In response to this
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7465170.stm

    Strangely enough the US didn't condemn this Israeli exercise as being provocative :rolleyes:

    It seems Iran is sending a message that any attack on her will be reciprocated. Perhaps it would be a good idea as Astronuc said for everyone to chill out.
     
  5. Jul 10, 2008 #4

    lisab

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  6. Jul 10, 2008 #5

    Gokul43201

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    Or they hired someone to fake a test firing.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25613318#25612706
    Really, everyone is making this out to be some kind of huge unprovoked threat by the Iranians, while it is mostly just an understandable reaction to Israeli threats.
     
  7. Jul 10, 2008 #6
  8. Jul 10, 2008 #7

    lisab

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  9. Jul 10, 2008 #8
    Which, in turn, are just understandable reactions to Iranian threats and provocations such as funding/arming Hezbollah and Hamas, wishing for the annihilation of Israel, holding Holocaust-denial conferences, and developing weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. At the end of the day, Israel doesn't pose any inherent danger to Iran; it's a tiny state a thousand miles away. It's only because Iran is pursuing regional Islamic hegemony, which requires getting out in front of the Arabs on the conflict with Israel, that there is any enmity between the two at all. Israel would be more than happy to ignore Iran if the mullah's weren't so busy pouring cash and weapons into the hands of people who launch indiscriminate attacks on Israel on a daily basis.
     
  10. Jul 10, 2008 #9

    Gokul43201

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    So you agree it is not unprovoked?
    ...which does not have at least thrice the Iranian air capability, has not developed the Jericho II with a range of a few thousand miles (Tehran is less than a thousand miles from Israel), and most definitely doesn't possess any nuclear warheads or the capability to deliver them. And of course, none of this capability which doesn't exist now, also didn't exist way back in the 70s, 80s or 90s, before Hezbollah or Hamas were formed, before Holocaust denial conferences were held, before Ahmedinejad made speeches about Israel, and definitely before Iran develops WMDs, sometime in the future.

    Making this whole affair look like a completely one-sided story takes a bit of spin. There are probably many times when Iran has delivered unprovoked threats - this isn't one of them.
     
  11. Jul 10, 2008 #10
    This missile photo really makes them look like clowns. Clowns that have a lot of money, guns, and now long range missiles that kinda work. Nah, we shouldn't worry about Iran, clowns are harmless.
     
  12. Jul 10, 2008 #11
    Few threats are, which is why it's not an interesting question. Indeed, the entire "unprovoked threat" stance is simply a strawman introduced by yourself; I don't know of anyone actually subscribing to it. The interesting issue is what is driving hostilities between Iran and Israel in the first place. In a nutshell, each side is looking to use the other as a bogey-man to build Arab support for the advancement of their own interests.

    Iran wants to attain regional hegemony, which requires both dethroning the most militarily formidible state in the region (Israel) and also undermining the Arab states, who oppose this project (again, by getting out in front of them on the conflict with Israel). It also fits in with the mullah's ideas of Islamic Revolution, although that is not always a consistent driver of Iranian policy. Israel, for their part, want to shore up their own borders (which are kept messy by Iranian funding and support) and their relations with the Arab states (who share an interest in opposing Iranian regional hegemony). Both sides are self-interested and ruthless, but I don't think that their aims are equally malign in this case. No Iranians have been killed by Israeli arms and funds; the converse is not true. Indeed, Iran-sponsored groups launch unprovoked, indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians on a more-or-less daily basis.

    None of which adds up to a threat to Iran, given that Israel has no inherent reason to be hostile to Iran. Similarly, the United States has vast arsenals of nuclear weapons and the means to rain them down on Israel, or Saudi Arabia, or Jordan, or Egypt, but that doesn't add up to threats to those countries because the US has no interest in doing so. Hostility between Iran and Israel is entirely an artifact of Iran's desire for regional primacy. If they weren't going out of their way to undermine Israel, they would be of little interest to Israel.

    Ignoring the fact that one side is clearly the aggressor in this situation takes more than spin. It takes willful ignorance. This is not the Arabs we're talking about here: Israel has never done anything to harm Iran. They're just unlucky enough to be a Jewish state that stands between Iran and the violent domination of the Middle East. Some things are true even if George Bush believes them.
     
  13. Jul 10, 2008 #12

    Art

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    It was Israel conducting a military exercise in preparation for an attack on Iran not the other way around. Iran has made no such threat to Israel. Iran has stated it will only attack Israel if Israel attacks them first. If Israel wishes to avert this threat then the answer is simple - don't attack Iran.

    I'm sure Israel's borders would be less messy as Quadraphonics termed it if only these pesky Palestinians would obligingly stop fighting the invaders of their land and go away and die somewhere but unfortunately despite draconian, cruel and brutal actions by the Israeli government and it's military backed by the US gov't resulting in the deaths and imprisonment of 1000s of Palestinians the Palestinian people continue to subvert the will of the Zionists. Good for them!! Hamas is a recent development in the ME funded mainly from Saudi Arabia and is a result of the Israelis refusal to reach agreement with the secular PLO and their continuing effort to grind down the Palestinian population.

    The fuss about Hamas is just a smoke screen. If Hamas disappeared tomorrow Israel would simply look for another excuse to avoid negotiating any agreement which resulted in them leaving the occupied land. Israel's strategy is to occupy the land for a long enough period as to establish a permanent claim over it and so genuine peace talks are not to their advantage. The fact the Palestinians want to make this as difficult as possible for them seems a perfectly reasonable reaction to me.
     
  14. Jul 10, 2008 #13

    russ_watters

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    You mean besides the attacks they carry out on Israel via proxy on an almost daily basis and besides the other stated threats from Iran, right? :rolleyes:
    "The Sum of all Fears" has a group of Palestinians protesting peacefully and the implications are profound for the kind of pressure it would put on Israel. But it is a moot point: they can't be considered legitimate without first acting legitimate. And I tend to not give the benefit of the doubt to the side who has stated explicitly that the only peace they will accept is with the other side wiped-out. Heck, really you just have to take both sides at their word. You are actually taking both sides to be liars: the Israelis are liars because they say want peace and the Palestinians are liars because they say they don't!
     
  15. Jul 10, 2008 #14

    Art

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    Can you provide sources to prove either of these allegations or are you just waffling again? Perhaps you're confused with the US funding of the anti-Iranian terrorist group the MEK??
     
  16. Jul 10, 2008 #15
    In response to
    Interestingly enough, I happen to be french, follow mainly french news, and if they are biaised there is a general agreement that it is more usually biaised towards Palestine than Israel ! I so happen to have seen the very same day, in the very same edition, a quite accusating investigation against Israel. The question was not so much of "why they did it ?" but rather "how can they be so careless ?".
     
  17. Jul 10, 2008 #16

    Art

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    I wonder why the Palestinians never thought of that :rolleyes: Oh, on second thoughts they did
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/20/israel1

    Hmm that didn't work out too well for the Palestinians, did it?

    Actions speak louder than words and Israel's actions have been as far apart from a strategy for peace as one could get :rofl:
     
  18. Jul 10, 2008 #17
    Help me out here, Art. What part should Isreal do to create peace there? Let's say they never retalliated against attacks. Would we then have peace? Would everyone leave them alone?
     
  19. Jul 10, 2008 #18
    No, the missile tests that comprise the topic of this thread constitutes Iran conducting a military exercise in preparation for an attack on Israel. There is absolutely no other possible reading of that event, and Iran's official spokesmen have been unequivocable on this point. That it might have been in response to an Israeli exercise doesn't change that, even if you ignore the fact that said Israeli exercise was itself in response to Iranian provocations.

    Right, they're so reasonable: stand there are take it while I pour money and arms into the hands of Hamas and Hezbollah and develop nuclear weapons, or I will launch a direct attack on your population centers. They're practically peaceniks!

    Notice that Israel has never suggested attacking Iranian cities, only nuclear facilities.

    Again, you're ignoring the obvious fact the ongoing Iranian-backed assault on Israel is what is motivating Israel to rattle sabers in the first place. Israel has no interest in an Iran that is not out to get it; indeed, prior to the revolution, they enjoyed very good relations with Iran and assisted in developing Iran's military and nuclear capabilities. Even after the revolution they assisted in the Iran-Contra arms deals, despite Tehran's refusal to recognize them on ideological grounds. Tensions between the two are entirely driven by Iranian irredentism. Efforts by various posters to paint Israel as the bad guy here all share one huge, gaping hole: Israel has no reason to pursue hostilities with Iran other than self-defence. Give me one reason why Israel would set about provoking hostilities with an Iran that wants only to be left alone.

    Nice polemic. Too bad it doesn't apply to Hezbollah. You know, the Iranian-backed group that Israel fought a border war with last year?

    Unsubstantiated nonsense. There might have been a time when Israel contemplated such a strategy, but those days are long gone. It's been clear as day to every reasonable person in Israel that the Palestinians are going to continue to outbreed them, and so make it impossible for Israel to ever subsume the occupied territories. The issue is how to achieve a sustainable solution at an acceptable cost. That, in turn, requires a genuine negotiating partner, which cannot arise as long as outside troublemakers pump money into rejectionist parties in order to sabotage any such agreement.

    You'd think that Israel never withdrew from Gaza to listen to some of these slanders...
     
  20. Jul 10, 2008 #19
  21. Jul 10, 2008 #20

    lisab

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