Momentum and relative velocity

In summary: A then changes direction and goes in the opposite direction.When the cars start to move, yes the momentum is zero, they are moving in no direction at all. Let's say at time t=1s, they can all start moving in the same direction, we would have: (mv)A+(mv)B+(mv)F=constantThat constant would just be a larger number than if I assumed that the flatcar was going in the other direction, in which case that same equation would look like this:(mv)A+(mv)B-(mv)F=constantI don't see why one is wrong
  • #1
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Attached is P14.2, a simple conservation of momentum problem with relative velocities. I have solved the problem on the second page. My answer is wrong because the signs of the velocities are wrong. I have no idea why. I am very bad at assuming directions and being consistent but I can't figure out how I messed this one up...
 

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  • #2
Looks to me like you took "to the left" as positive, yet you called the speed of the flatcar +0.34 m/s (it should be negative).
 
  • #3
Yes I took left to be positive, why should the flatcar be negative? Its moving to the right? How do I know that? I assumed that car A, car B and the flatcar had a constant final velocities to the left, which made them all positive.
 
  • #4
cipotilla said:
Yes I took left to be positive, why should the flatcar be negative? Its moving to the right? How do I know that?
From conservation of momentum.

I assumed that car A, car B and the flatcar had a constant final velocities to the left, which made them all positive.
And that's why you get a negative mass for the flatcar, a nonsensical answer!
 
  • #5
Usually, but not necessarily the sign convention is that velocities pointed left are NEGATIVE (viz. -2.55 m/s and -2.5 m/s). Velocities to the right are usually given a positive value as the problem does +.34 m/s. Using these values you will get the correct answer. Velocity is a vector quantity having magnitude and direction. In a 1-D problem, + is to the right and - is to the left, by convention. (You can reverse the convention, FOR ALL THE VELOCITIES IN THE PROBLEM, and you also get the right answer.)
 
  • #6
PBR said:
Usually, but not necessarily the sign convention is that velocities pointed left are NEGATIVE (viz. -2.55 m/s and -2.5 m/s). Velocities to the right are usually given a positive value as the problem does +.34 m/s. Using these values you will get the correct answer. Velocity is a vector quantity having magnitude and direction. In a 1-D problem, + is to the right and - is to the left, by convention. (You can reverse the convention, FOR ALL THE VELOCITIES IN THE PROBLEM, and you also get the right answer.)
The issue was not one of sign convention, but of assigning the correct direction to the flatcar's motion.
 
  • #7
Doc Al, you said I know the flatcar is moving to the right from conservation of momentum...Initially I don't know any of the directions for the velocities. I assumed them and got an answer that was obviously wrong. So I know that my assumption is wrong. But how to I know from conservation of momentum that the cars are going in the oposite direction of the flatcar?
 
  • #8
cipotilla said:
Doc Al, you said I know the flatcar is moving to the right from conservation of momentum...Initially I don't know any of the directions for the velocities.
At some point, physical intuition will kick in and that will save you time. If the cars go left, the flatcar must go right. (The problem creater assumed you would know this.)
I assumed them and got an answer that was obviously wrong. So I know that my assumption is wrong. But how to I know from conservation of momentum that the cars are going in the oposite direction of the flatcar?
They start out from rest so total momentum equals zero. If everything moved in the same direction, then total momentum could not be zero!
 
  • #9
Doc Al said:
At some point, physical intuition will kick in and that will save you time. If the cars go left, the flatcar must go right. (The problem creater assumed you would know this.)

They start out from rest so total momentum equals zero. If everything moved in the same direction, then total momentum could not be zero!

When the cars start to move, yes the momentum is zero, they are moving in no direction at all. Let's say at time t=1s, they can all start moving in the same direction, we would have: (mv)A+(mv)B+(mv)F=constant
That constant would just be a larger number than if I assumed that the flatcar was going in the other direction, in which case that same equation would look like this:
(mv)A+(mv)B-(mv)F=constant
I don't see why one is wrong and the other isnt.
 
  • #10
What I am thinking is similar to the following situation:
Lets say that I were on a train, sitting in my seat, at rest while the train too is at rest (lets say its at a stop). Then after a couple of minutes the train starts to move again, it moves east. I could get up from my seat and walk east too. I don't see why that's against physical intuition. The same thing for the cars, where car A and car B are me and the train is the flatcar.
 
  • #11
cipotilla said:
When the cars start to move, yes the momentum is zero, they are moving in no direction at all.
Before the cars move, everything is at rest. The momentum of flatcar + cars starts and remains zero since we presume no external force acts on the flatcar.
Let's say at time t=1s, they can all start moving in the same direction, we would have: (mv)A+(mv)B+(mv)F=constant
That constant would just be a larger number than if I assumed that the flatcar was going in the other direction, in which case that same equation would look like this:
(mv)A+(mv)B-(mv)F=constant
I don't see why one is wrong and the other isnt.
The only way everything can start moving in the same direction is if an external force acts on them. Presumably, there is no such force acting. (The tracks are frictionless.)

cipotilla said:
What I am thinking is similar to the following situation:
Lets say that I were on a train, sitting in my seat, at rest while the train too is at rest (lets say its at a stop). Then after a couple of minutes the train starts to move again, it moves east.
The train starts to move because the tracks exert a force on it.
I could get up from my seat and walk east too. I don't see why that's against physical intuition. The same thing for the cars, where car A and car B are me and the train is the flatcar.
No, the cases are different, due to the presence of an external force. To see this more clearly, let's use a different example: You are on a rowboat floating on a calm lake. (Assume no resistive force from the water on the boat.) If you start to walk east, what happens to the boat?
 
  • #12
Thats brilliant...thanks. I'm learning more here than I am in class.
 

What is momentum?

Momentum is a measure of an object's mass and velocity. It is a vector quantity, meaning it has both magnitude and direction. The formula for momentum is p = m * v, where p is momentum, m is mass, and v is velocity.

How is momentum conserved?

Momentum is conserved in a closed system, meaning when there are no external forces acting on the system. In this case, the total momentum before an event is equal to the total momentum after the event. This is known as the law of conservation of momentum.

What is relative velocity?

Relative velocity is the velocity of an object as observed from a different reference point. It takes into account the motion of both the observer and the object. The formula for relative velocity is vAB = vA + vB, where vAB is the relative velocity of object A as observed from object B, vA is the velocity of object A, and vB is the velocity of object B.

How does relative velocity affect momentum?

Relative velocity affects momentum by changing the perceived velocity of an object. For example, if two objects are moving towards each other with equal velocities, their relative velocity is zero and their momentums will cancel out. However, if one object has a higher velocity, their relative velocity will be greater and the momentum of the faster object will not be canceled out by the slower object.

How is momentum used in real life?

Momentum is used in many real-life applications, including sports, transportation, and engineering. In sports, athletes use momentum to their advantage by running faster, swinging a bat or racket, or throwing a ball with more momentum to achieve better results. In transportation, engineers use momentum to design vehicles that are more efficient and have better handling. Momentum is also used in collision analysis to determine the force and damage caused by a collision.

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