How to create monopole magnetic material?

[thinhnghiem]

Hi all,

During my student time, I was impressed by the conclusion that magnetic only exists in nature in di-pole, that results in the fact that it is impossible for a magnet to have only North pole or South pole.

By my own experiment, recently I have discovered methods to create monopole magnetic material. To say in more detail, I do not have ambition to modify the second Maxwell's equation in electrodynamic divB = 0, or to prove that Dirac theory about existence of magnetic charge is true etc, I simply made the magnetized specimen to have the same kind of pole at both edges (Both north pole or both south pole).

1. Solution 1:
The problem here is that when we cut a magnet in the middle, it results in 2 smaller magnet, each has both north and south pole at 2 edges. When we continue to cut these small magnets, smaller magnet are created again.. and so on. I have put a question that, what happens if I try to weld two magnets into one, by the edges having the same kind of pole?

Then, I bring 2 magnets to a mechanic shop to ask them to weld their north poles together.
(See my attached picture magnet.png). And I have a magnetized specimen that has south poles at both edges, while the North poles were hidden in the middle.

Testing:

The created product was tested by using compass, I put the its two edges in turn near the North, then the South pole of the compass needle for checking. By this way, I found that it made the South pole of compass needle to be pushed away, and attracted its North pole when using both edges.

2. Solution 2:
My original thought came from the fact that a made of steel specimen would become magnetized when contacting with a magnet. When I let one edge of the specimen contacted with the North pole of a magnet, that edge becomes the South pole of a new magnet, while the other edge becomes the North pole. Vice versa, when one edge of the specimen is let contacted with the South pole of a magnet, that edge becomes the North pole, while the other edge becomes the South pole.
Then, I put a question: What happens if I contact 2 edges of one specimen with 2 North poles of 2 different magnets? Will both edges become South poles? Does it really become a magnetized specimen with 2 South pole?

By above thinking, I selected the Gilette razor blades as specimens for my experiment. To do that, I touched a blade by 2 magnets at 2 edges as the attached picture P1010720-1.jpg

The blade must be contacted with 2 magnets by the same kinds of pole, North or South. As shown in the picture, the both edges of the blade are contacted with the North poles. In this case, the final products are majority mono South pole sample. Otherwise, if I touch the blade with 2 South poles at two edges, I will have a mono North pole sample. However, sometimes I get the opposite result.

When doing the contact, the two edges must be touched with the magnet’s poles at the same time. Many times, I failed at the last moment just by touching one edge with magnet before the other awkwardly.

Then, I let it there for around 7 or 8 hours before testing the result.

There is also another way of contacting, as the attached picture P1010719-1.jpg.

Testing:
The final products were tested by using compass, I put the two edges of the blade in turn near the North, then the South pole of the compass needle for checking.

Result:
Many samples of blade pass the testing. Both edges of a mono North pole sample made the North pole of compass needle to be pushed away, and attracted its South pole. Vice versa for the mono South pole sample.

The ratio of pass samples on total is 4/10, i.e. by doing experiments with 10 blades, there are 4 pass at all and 6 fail (becoming di-pole). One of the reasons for failure, as my guessing, is the asynchronous touching of the magnets as saying above.

The mono pole status can be maintained in within 1 or 2 days. After that time, I retested the pass samples and found that they turn into di-pole magnetic.

Conclusion:
Above is the detail information of my solutions to generate mono-pole magnetic samples. By reading this, any member can replicate the experiment. I am still holding the pass samples here for demo in need. You can contact me for more information at email: thinhnb@gmail.com

Any feedback are welcomed


Thinh Nghiem from Vietnam

 

[Phrak]

Put your magnet under a piece of card or paper. Sprinkle iron filings on the paper, and see what your 'monopole' really looks like.

 

[granpa]

lets suppose that a regular magnet can be thought of as a north and south monopole connected together. let's suppose you could in fact glue 2 such magnets together as you suggested. but let's not stop there. glue lots of such magnets into a sphere with their north monopoles in the center. can you see why the resulting structure would be uninteresting? it would have absolutely no external field.

 

[Meir Achuz]

I didn't read your post in full, but putting two bar magnets back to back would create a magnetic quadrupole, not a monopole.

 

[thinhnghiem]

Hi all,

Firstly, thank you for your feedback.

Here we have 2 different issues: How can we generate monopole magnetic in experiment, and if successful, does it have any application in technology

1. First of all, how to generate monopole magnetic in experiment. If you read my text again, you can see that I have no ambition to change the second equation of Maxwell divergence B = 0, or to discuss Dirac theory about the existence of magnetic charge. I am an engineer, I just comprehend a monopole magnetic specimen simply as a specimen that has 2 heads sharing the same kind of magnetic pole (North or South). You can see in my experiments that I only focused on that thought. I agreed that the first solution may create pseudo monopole, as Clem's comment. Why don't you share your time to try the second one to see if it can be replicated. It's rather easy to do.

2. The second issue referred to Granpa's comment, is this result helpful to any area of engineering? Actually I don't know. Maybe my experiment contributes to the development of many engineering areas like data storage product, electronics spare parts etc. Or maybe finally it has no value at all. So, I posted here for reference. If any engineer reading this forum consider that my thought is helpful, it will be used.

Thinh Nghiem

 

[marcusl]

Hi all,

Firstly, thank you for your feedback.

Here we have 2 different issues: How can we generate monopole magnetic in experiment, and if successful, does it have any application in technology

1. First of all, how to generate monopole magnetic in experiment. If you read my text again, you can see that I have no ambition to change the second equation of Maxwell divergence B = 0, or to discuss Dirac theory about the existence of magnetic charge. I am an engineer, I just comprehend a monopole magnetic specimen simply as a specimen that has 2 heads sharing the same kind of magnetic pole (North or South). You can see in my experiments that I only focused on that thought. I agreed that the first solution may create pseudo monopole, as Clem's comment. Why don't you share your time to try the second one to see if it can be replicated. It's rather easy to do.


Thinh Nghiem

You can't create a monopole from dipole magnets no matter how you try to connect them. You'll always get a quadrupole with the arrangement in solution 1. If you want to call it a monopole, well, that's up to you but you won't be able to speak with anyone else (including here at PF) without confusion. Another comment: your measurement apparatus (compass) is much too crude for you to determine what you have. Follow phrak's suggestion--it will allow you to visualize the H field lines, and you will see that they always loop.

I can't follow your description of "solution 2"; I'm guessing that your magnet is too weak to consistently magnetize the razor blade.

 

[thinhnghiem]

You can't create a monopole from dipole magnets no matter how you try to connect them. You'll always get a quadrupole with the arrangement in solution 1. If you want to call it a monopole, well, that's up to you but you won't be able to speak with anyone else (including here at PF) without confusion. Another comment: your measurement apparatus (compass) is much too crude for you to determine what you have. Follow phrak's suggestion--it will allow you to visualize the H field lines, and you will see that they always loop.

I can't follow your description of "solution 2"; I'm guessing that your magnet is too weak to consistently magnetize the razor blade.

Yes, the razor blade is rather weakly magnetized. However, it is strong enough to make the compass needle turning. If you follow my instruction to let razor contact with magnets within 7 - 8 hours, it will have effect.

I will try phrak's suggestion.

 

[Nick89]

I don't want to sound rude, but do you honestly expect that so many people, having searched for magnetic monopoles for so long, never came up with the idea to stick two magnets together?

 

[thinhnghiem]

I don't want to sound rude, but do you honestly expect that so many people, having searched for magnetic monopoles for so long, never came up with the idea to stick two magnets together?

Hi Nick89,

Yes, I have. I do not determine that I am quite right, that's the why I post my actions here for feedback. But I know that sometimes many development in science and technology come from very simple initial thought. Many people did not come up with it just because it's too simple, while they are thinking about complicated issues. Who could imagine that the first microscope was made just by 2 lens put far from each other with reasonable distance, and the optic fibre technology began with a very basic effect in optic, the Tyndall effect about wholly reflection.

Thanks for your opinion

 

[ZapperZ]

Hi Nick89,

Yes, I have. I do not determine that I am quite right, that's the why I post my actions here for feedback. But I know that sometimes many development in science and technology come from very simple initial thought. Many people did not come up with it just because it's too simple, while they are thinking about complicated issues. Who could imagine that the first microscope was made just by 2 lens put far from each other with reasonable distance, and the optic fibre technology began with a very basic effect in optic, the Tyndall effect about wholly reflection.

Thanks for your opinion

But these were done by experts in those fields, not by some amateurs.

If you are still convinced you have a "monopole", then map out the field made by your configuration. The rest of us are convinced you don't have a monopole. Until you can show such mapping, there is no evidence that you have a monopole.

Zz.

 

[Defennder]

Wait, I want to make sure I got this correct. I didn't read the entire first post, but it seems all the OP has done is to simply tape like poles of two separate magnets and he now has a monopole?

 

[Nick89]

Wait, I want to make sure I got this correct. I didn't read the entire first post, but it seems all the OP has done is to simply tape like poles of two separate magnets and he now has a monopole?

Correction: he believes he has a monopole.

 

[thinhnghiem]

I have been consulted by some specialists in this area. Now I agree that I am wrong. I think we can stop this topic here. Thank you all for your opinions.

 

[N468989]

Hi! i have a question for the most known in this area. I have a magnet. if i cut it in half i get two other magnets, each with 2 poles north and south. My question is if i continuously divide them in less and less pieces into very very small pieces are the north and south poles still "there".?

On the other hand is it like mawells laws of electromagentism? "Electric field is a Magnetic field". One doesn't exist without the other. What "we" are trying to do is impossible. A magnetic North pole creates a South pole and vice-versa. One is the other. Thats why we cannot separate it.
What happens when we cut a magnet in half? there is a creation of another pole! (one creates the other!)

Example: take for instance a resistance. for a resistance R we want to separate admittance. This is nonsense, one "is" the other.

Edit: What could be discovered is a way of "killing out the creation of that pole", that is, what is the process involved when we cut the magnet? What's the "reaction that makes its tick"?I would like to hear some good comments on this thankyou!

 

[Nick89]

Magnetic north and south poles are not two separate 'things'. When you cut a magnet in half, you do not create a pole of the other 'sign', it was already there, merely hidden by the fact that there are so many tiny magnets (the atoms themselves) with all their magnetic fields pointing in roughly the same direction.

If you keep cutting up a magnet you will have a magnetic north and south pole until you reach a single atom. The atom has a magnetic moment (due to the (classically) orbiting electron(s) which are accelerating charges) and hence still can be thought of as a north and south pole.

If a magnetic monopole would be found, it would have to consist of something we have not discovered yet. As far as I know there is no way to create a monopole with the current facts we believe true.

 

[cabraham]

If you want a field that resembles a "monopole", then here is my suggestion. At distances very close to one pole of a bar magnet, the other pole is too far away to exert much influence. This is for all practical purposes a virtual monopole. The field is like that of a monopole if it existed.

Motors/generators make use of this property since day one. BR.

Claude

 

[N468989]

If you want a field that resembles a "monopole", then here is my suggestion. At distances very close to one pole of a bar magnet, the other pole is too far away to exert much influence. This is for all practical purposes a virtual monopole. The field is like that of a monopole if it existed.

Motors/generators make use of this property since day one. BR.

Claude

If we then take a infintly large magnet we would get at the extremities an ideal monopole, thus study the properties of such.

In this matter, we can define regions, where we consider monopole region, or the dipole region.

I think it is important to study this phenomenon. We can learn many things

 

[pallidin]

A macroscopic monopole is impossible to construct.

A key requirement of a monopole demands that a wholly N or S field eminate without return. Experimentally this has been shown to be impossible regardless of macroscopic magnet configuration.

A subatomic or quantum monopole may or may not have this restriction, but a macroscopic monopole configuration does.

 

[Nick89]

If you want a field that resembles a "monopole", then here is my suggestion. At distances very close to one pole of a bar magnet, the other pole is too far away to exert much influence. This is for all practical purposes a virtual monopole. The field is like that of a monopole if it existed.

Motors/generators make use of this property since day one. BR.

Claude

I don't understand. How does the magnetic field very close to a magnet ever resemble the magnetic field of a monopole? In a monopole the field lines would have to start, or end at the monopole. Very close to your normal magnet, the field lines still continue happily, one side outside the magnet and the other through the magnet itself, eventually looping back on itself (the fieldlines are closed). So how does the field resemble a monopole there?

 

[cabraham]

In close proximity to a pole, the flux lines exit (or enter) the pole straight out along the end of the bar. They eventually wrap around to the other pole at some distance away from the pole. But at very close distances, the wrap around is far away, and the flux appears to emanate from the pole and continue onward.

Take any reference book showing the lines around a bar magnet. Examine a point very close to one pole. You will see what I'm talking about. BR.

Claude

 

[ZapperZ]

In close proximity to a pole, the flux lines exit (or enter) the pole straight out along the end of the bar. They eventually wrap around to the other pole at some distance away from the pole. But at very close distances, the wrap around is far away, and the flux appears to emanate from the pole and continue onward.

Take any reference book showing the lines around a bar magnet. Examine a point very close to one pole. You will see what I'm talking about. BR.

Claude

But is this really what is meant by a "monopole", i.e. having a non-zero divergence of the vector field?

What you described is no different than having, say, a uniform magnetic field. But you don't see people referring to it as the "monopole" field, do you?

Zz.

 

[cabraham]

Of course. I never inferred that this example is a "true monopole", as no one has ever found such. In a small region of space very close to the pole, the flux lines appear similar to that of a monopole. But if we enclose a finite spatial region, then the divergence of the field is indeed zero.

If the pole was a true monopole, the flux lines emanate outward and never wrap around. If we enclose a volume just outside the monopole, we get zero divergence as the monopole is not enclosed. With an actual bar magnet, the lines emanate outward, and if the enclosed space near the pole is small and close to the pole, the lines appear to emanate straight out. The wrap around is far enough away to be negligible. Enclosing a finite volume near the pole results in zero divergence just like the true monopole case.

This analogy is very limited since you cannot simulate a true monopole in every sense of the word.

Claude

 

[Nick89]

You may be right (I don't know that much about monopoles to be honest) but I can see one flaw (assuming my understanding of monopoles is correct) in your logic:

In a monopole, would the field lines 'radiate' outwards OR inwards only? For example, a 'South' monopole would have all field lines pointing toward it, while a 'north' monopole would have all field lines pointing away from it.
(Compare to a single electric charge)

If what I just stated is correct (please correct me if not) then even infinitely close to the bar magnet you have a giant flaw:
On one side, the field lines 'flow outwards' (point away from) the magnet, while the other side (inside the bar magnet for example) has the field lines pointing toward the magnet!
(Not so much like a single electric charge!)

 

[ZapperZ]

Of course. I never inferred that this example is a "true monopole", as no one has ever found such. In a small region of space very close to the pole, the flux lines appear similar to that of a monopole.

How? What exactly does a "monopole field" look like that is similar to this?

Zz.

 

[cabraham]

You may be right (I don't know that much about monopoles to be honest) but I can see one flaw (assuming my understanding of monopoles is correct) in your logic:

In a monopole, would the field lines 'radiate' outwards OR inwards only? For example, a 'South' monopole would have all field lines pointing toward it, while a 'north' monopole would have all field lines pointing away from it.
(Compare to a single electric charge)

If what I just stated is correct (please correct me if not) then even infinitely close to the bar magnet you have a giant flaw:
On one side, the field lines 'flow outwards' (point away from) the magnet, while the other side (inside the bar magnet for example) has the field lines pointing toward the magnet!
(Not so much like a single electric charge!)

How? What exactly does a "monopole field" look like that is similar to this?

Zz.

A magnetic monopole field would resemble the electric field pattern of a point charge. If a closed volume included an isolated magnetic monopole, the divergence of B is non-zero. If an enclosed volume is located in very close proximity to the mag monopole but does not enclose the monopole, the div B = 0. In this volume, the B field lines exit the monopole and enter the volume, pass through, and exit the enclosed volume.

A bar magnet, when viewed from a small enclosed volume very close to a pole, but not enclosing the pole is now examined. Here, div B = 0. Also, the B lines emanate from the pole of the bar magnet, pass through the enclosure, exit the enclosure, then eventually wrap around to the opposite pole. But if the enclosed volume is small enough, and very close to the pole of the bar magnet, the field lines in the enclosed volume appear very similar to that of the first case above. The wrapping around of B is far away from the enclosed volume, so that there is a similarity.

However, under no circumstances does this produce a non-zero divergence of B. This analogy is quite limited. If you're looking for a B field with non-zero divergence, then this analogy does not produce that.

Have I explained myself well? BR.

Claude

 

[ZapperZ]

A magnetic monopole field would resemble the electric field pattern of a point charge. If a closed volume included an isolated magnetic monopole, the divergence of B is non-zero. If an enclosed volume is located in very close proximity to the mag monopole but does not enclose the monopole, the div B = 0. In this volume, the B field lines exit the monopole and enter the volume, pass through, and exit the enclosed volume.

A bar magnet, when viewed from a small enclosed volume very close to a pole, but not enclosing the pole is now examined. Here, div B = 0. Also, the B lines emanate from the pole of the bar magnet, pass through the enclosure, exit the enclosure, then eventually wrap around to the opposite pole. But if the enclosed volume is small enough, and very close to the pole of the bar magnet, the field lines in the enclosed volume appear very similar to that of the first case above. The wrapping around of B is far away from the enclosed volume, so that there is a similarity.

However, under no circumstances does this produce a non-zero divergence of B. This analogy is quite limited. If you're looking for a B field with non-zero divergence, then this analogy does not produce that.

Have I explained myself well? BR.

Claude

You have explained it, but it is extremely puzzling how you are able to convinced yourself of what I've highlighted in bold. How are you able to show that in that small volume, the field resembles that of a source charge? How small is "small enough"? Can you show a mathematical derivation that this is the case?

Zz.

 

[Nick89]

See this image:

How can you ever get a similar magnetic field without actually having a monopole? Even if you look very close to a normal bar magnet so the field lines are essentially straight and you don't see them 'wrapping around', there is still the case that there are field lines will enter the 'volume' you are looking at, and field lines that will exit the volume. In the case of a monopole (as in the picture) there are only exiting or entering fields.
(By exiting and entering I mean regarding the 'direction of the arrow', I know it's not the right word but I don't know how to explain it further...)

 

[cabraham]

See this image:

How can you ever get a similar magnetic field without actually having a monopole? Even if you look very close to a normal bar magnet so the field lines are essentially straight and you don't see them 'wrapping around', there is still the case that there are field lines will enter the 'volume' you are looking at, and field lines that will exit the volume. In the case of a monopole (as in the picture) there are only exiting or entering fields.
(By exiting and entering I mean regarding the 'direction of the arrow', I know it's not the right word but I don't know how to explain it further...)

I've already stated what you've pictorially depicted. Good pic by the way. In the pic above, if a small volume encloses a monopole, then div B is non-zero. This cannot be duplicated with a bar magnet. The point I was making is that you can never get a non-zero divergence until a monopole is discovered. For now that hasn't happened.

My bar magnet analogy was mentioned just to show that the field line pattern very close to one of the poles resembles a pattern emanating from a monopole. The condition I stated was that the small volume is near the pole so that the wrap around is outside the said volume. The field lines resemble those if a monopole were present OUTSIDE but very near the volume. With a true monopole there is no wrap around at any distance. With my example, there is a wrap around, but not "seen" inside a volume in close proximity with small volume.

I've also stated explicitly that " div B = 0 " is a law we cannot get around ever. My analogy is very limited, and I do not claim that a region in space very close to a pole on a bar magnet is exactly like a monopole in the true sense, as it is certainly not.

We seem to have universal agreement. We all know that div B = 0, in all cases with real magnets regardless of how close to the pole, regardless of how small the volume.

We agree. No need for debate.

Claude

 

[Robin07]

There is a purpose for monopoles or should I say virtual monopoles. I have fashioned a (continuous shape) whereby the two poles are far enough apart to resemble the afore mentioned description by Cabraham. What its' use will be is still in R+D. I does work as expected though, meaning you can shape an H/B field to suit a purpose, mine being flight.

I inadvertently fell into this, constructing an exterior magnetic field as a sensor or receptor of H/B field when I noticed the properties of the field is not the property of the magnet but instead its' a property of the poles. From there it was much easer to understand the behavior of the field relative to its' surroundings and how it can be shaped.

Thanks again for the input from Zex and Berkeman in the Electrical Engineering Forum

My apologies for being vague.

 

[Robin07]

I have constructed an object that indicates that there is only one pole around its' entire exterior, as well as, at four distinct points the flux is very strong. Each point/spot is 120 degrees off-set in relation to each of the other four intense flux spots. I really don't see, that it's all that complicated. I know what my intentions are for this is but what would anyone else do with this?

 

[pallidin]

OK, whatever. I would be willing to bet that you did not actually construct this object apart from drawings on paper that you think works.

 

[pallidin]

And those polar field lines some think are straight are not straight at all.
They eventually curve to the opposite pole.

The reason most iron-filing set-ups appear to show a polar straight line is that the magnetic force at that point is too weak to align the relatively massive iron-filings into a curve.

 

[Robin07]

Well I tried it. I took a 300mm Iron rod and a N42 nib magnet, starting in the center of the rod and switching to the other side, again starting from the center after each stroke. I then brought it proximity to a compass and indeed the north end of the needle pointed to the end of either side of the rod. I also noticed that the south end of the needle pointed to the center of the rod as I was passing it. So, what you have is not a monopole it just has the same pole on each end and the opposite pole in the middle.

 

[Attanew]

about 2nd solution, when you conected to magneteic with north-north, and South - south , infact, you have one magnetic which is weaker than both of first mgnetic because, their magnetic fields destroy each other...