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Moral high grounds

  1. Sep 21, 2003 #1

    kat

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    I'm curious, which countries people feel are morally superior to Israel. Which countries do you feel have the moral high ground and Why?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 21, 2003 #2

    FZ+

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    All nations that do not take on a retributionalist stance to security, seek to de-integrate religon and government, encourages free speech, abide by past treaties etc etc.
     
  4. Sep 21, 2003 #3
    Alex, what is Canada?



    More generally, any country that doesn't answer terror with terror.
     
  5. Sep 21, 2003 #4

    kat

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    Canada doesn't exactly have a pretty history either..acadians? wartime internment of Japanese Canadians? Quebec seperatism? treatment of their natives?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2003
  6. Sep 21, 2003 #5

    kat

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    Such as?
     
  7. Sep 21, 2003 #6

    FZ+

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    The US prior to our dear old George Bush.
    Canada (right now). Britain (at least we try to restore order after we bombed everything to bits, and let aid organisations do their work.) France. (:wink:) South Africa (Which pioneered truth and reconcilliation, and that eventually worked.) and so on.


    Hmm... with canada you seem to be reaching into history. Of course there are bleak periods in the history of any nation. But in Israel, it's happening right now.

    However, strange argument you are developing. Atrocities are ok, so long as other people have done them before? Sounds.... interesting.
     
  8. Sep 21, 2003 #7
    No, the theory apparently is that it is ok, so long as you aren't as bad as someone, anyone else. Oh, and it helps to be Jewish, because after the Holocaust they apparently get a 'move to Israel and get out of human rights violations free" card.
     
  9. Sep 21, 2003 #8

    kat

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    Don't put words into my post or my thread. The subject is moral high grounds, and which countries have it. If 30 years ago I murdered someone, 30 years pass and having not murdered another person..am I morally superior to someone murdering a person under similar circumstances today? I hardly think so.
    So..again, which countries hold the moral high ground?
     
  10. Sep 21, 2003 #9
    Hmmm...so doies that mean we can hate israel forever because of the terrorism of 50 years ago? In that case, no country has teh moral high ground...except probably Guam.
     
  11. Sep 21, 2003 #10
    BTW, thisa doesn't make any sense. If the guy holding my job 30 years ago beat his wife, it doesn't mean I'm going to.
     
  12. Sep 21, 2003 #11

    FZ+

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    Actually kat, you are really missing the point. Thw whole point of saying Israel has no moral high ground is in fact that on average, there is no such thing as a moral high ground. There is no such thing as "goodness credits", which say you can murder someone so long as you lead a nice happy life beforehand. russ's statement is undoubtedly wrong. Though Zero was goaded into being also inaccurate in his response.

    But if we follow your curious argument, since Israel claims to be the oldest of all nations, all other nations can be judged as having the moral high ground because they simply have not existed long enough to kill so many people. For Israel, since the present government claim to be the inheritors of the biblical Israel, we can pull back all those genocides they and their god claim to have committed, and add up a figure larger than almost all other nations. The palestinians, arriving after the Israelites are now giving the moral high ground.
     
  13. Sep 21, 2003 #12
    Israel has existed since 1947, right? So do they get a fresh slate?
     
  14. Sep 21, 2003 #13

    FZ+

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    The Palestinian state doesn't exist. Does their slate remain permanently clean?:wink:
     
  15. Sep 21, 2003 #14
    I'm thinking YES!! LOL
     
  16. Sep 21, 2003 #15

    kat

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    The point? I think you need to re-read what I've posted.
    You seem to be re-iterating what I've already said....

    I'm sorry, I must be missing something..what curious argument is that that I've made????
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2003
  17. Sep 21, 2003 #16
    I think we are all missing something...before things get too far afield, can we start again, at the first point of confusion?
     
  18. Sep 22, 2003 #17

    FZ+

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    The point is that you are nit-picking at something that does not have significance - the whole point is that Israel does not have a moral high ground. But meanwhile, you make statements that lead to downright absurd conclusions. eg.

    Where you somehow draw significance to historical incidents.
     
  19. Sep 22, 2003 #18

    kat

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    Ah,hmmm..I think you're reading more in to my comments then are really there. I'm not "nit-picking" the point should be that no-one has the moral high ground unless they have a "clean slate" and although the point I would like to make isn't even hinted at..IMO instead of considering an immeasurable and in reality non-existant "moral high-ground' it would be better to consider motivation and resolutions, giving consideration to all of the politics that affect...both sides of the green line.



    There is significance in historical incidents, perhaps something in the manner of "tests of fire"? I don't know..if all "mature", democratic nations have gone through similar experiences then it would seem to make sense to recognize that, at the very least. I don't think any of the nations you've listed can take a "holier then thou" stance..they all have dirty hands, and rather nasty histories. Perhaps they can give insight through experience..but IMO none can take the stance of having a "moral high-ground", quite certianly not Britian or France as much of the issues that exist in the ME are a direct result of their own politics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2003
  20. Sep 22, 2003 #19
    You all know how I feel...answering brutality with brutality is hardly a prrof of moral superiority. The Israeli response to terrorism has always been violence, very often leaving innocent children dead.
     
  21. Sep 22, 2003 #20

    kat

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    Yes, I'm quite sure we all know how you feel:wink: but the question was
     
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