News Moral high grounds

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kat

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Originally posted by Zero
I'm sick of you pretending that Israel holds some moral high ground.
Originally posted by russ_watters
Israel's moral high ground is clear enough.
Originally posted by Zero
That's because it is low enough that most other countries can look down on it.
I'm curious, which countries people feel are morally superior to Israel. Which countries do you feel have the moral high ground and Why?
 

FZ+

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All nations that do not take on a retributionalist stance to security, seek to de-integrate religon and government, encourages free speech, abide by past treaties etc etc.
 

Zero

Alex, what is Canada?



More generally, any country that doesn't answer terror with terror.
 

kat

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Originally posted by Zero
Alex, what is Canada?



More generally, any country that doesn't answer terror with terror.
Canada doesn't exactly have a pretty history either..acadians? wartime internment of Japanese Canadians? Quebec seperatism? treatment of their natives?
 
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kat

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Originally posted by FZ+
All nations that do not take on a retributionalist stance to security, seek to de-integrate religon and government, encourages free speech, abide by past treaties etc etc.
Such as?
 

FZ+

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The US prior to our dear old George Bush.
Canada (right now). Britain (at least we try to restore order after we bombed everything to bits, and let aid organisations do their work.) France. (:wink:) South Africa (Which pioneered truth and reconcilliation, and that eventually worked.) and so on.


Hmm... with canada you seem to be reaching into history. Of course there are bleak periods in the history of any nation. But in Israel, it's happening right now.

However, strange argument you are developing. Atrocities are ok, so long as other people have done them before? Sounds.... interesting.
 

Zero

No, the theory apparently is that it is ok, so long as you aren't as bad as someone, anyone else. Oh, and it helps to be Jewish, because after the Holocaust they apparently get a 'move to Israel and get out of human rights violations free" card.
 

kat

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Originally posted by FZ+
The US prior to our dear old George Bush.
Canada (right now). Britain (at least we try to restore order after we bombed everything to bits, and let aid organisations do their work.) France. (:wink:) South Africa (Which pioneered truth and reconcilliation, and that eventually worked.) and so on.


Hmm... with canada you seem to be reaching into history. Of course there are bleak periods in the history of any nation. But in Israel, it's happening right now.

However, strange argument you are developing. Atrocities are ok, so long as other people have done them before? Sounds.... interesting.
Don't put words into my post or my thread. The subject is moral high grounds, and which countries have it. If 30 years ago I murdered someone, 30 years pass and having not murdered another person..am I morally superior to someone murdering a person under similar circumstances today? I hardly think so.
So..again, which countries hold the moral high ground?
 

Zero

Hmmm...so doies that mean we can hate israel forever because of the terrorism of 50 years ago? In that case, no country has teh moral high ground...except probably Guam.
 

Zero

Originally posted by kat
Don't put words into my post or my thread. The subject is moral high grounds, and which countries have it. If 30 years ago I murdered someone, 30 years pass and having not murdered another person..am I morally superior to someone murdering a person under similar circumstances today? I hardly think so.
So..again, which countries hold the moral high ground?
BTW, thisa doesn't make any sense. If the guy holding my job 30 years ago beat his wife, it doesn't mean I'm going to.
 

FZ+

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Actually kat, you are really missing the point. Thw whole point of saying Israel has no moral high ground is in fact that on average, there is no such thing as a moral high ground. There is no such thing as "goodness credits", which say you can murder someone so long as you lead a nice happy life beforehand. russ's statement is undoubtedly wrong. Though Zero was goaded into being also inaccurate in his response.

But if we follow your curious argument, since Israel claims to be the oldest of all nations, all other nations can be judged as having the moral high ground because they simply have not existed long enough to kill so many people. For Israel, since the present government claim to be the inheritors of the biblical Israel, we can pull back all those genocides they and their god claim to have committed, and add up a figure larger than almost all other nations. The palestinians, arriving after the Israelites are now giving the moral high ground.
 

Zero

Originally posted by FZ+
Actually kat, you are really missing the point. Thw whole point of saying Israel has no moral high ground is in fact that on average, there is no such thing as a moral high ground. There is no such thing as "goodness credits", which say you can murder someone so long as you lead a nice happy life beforehand. russ's statement is undoubtedly wrong. Though Zero was goaded into being also inaccurate in his response.

But if we follow your curious argument, since Israel claims to be the oldest of all nations, all other nations can be judged as having the moral high ground because they simply have not existed long enough to kill so many people. For Israel, since the present government claim to be the inheritors of the biblical Israel, we can pull back all those genocides they and their god claim to have committed, and add up a figure larger than almost all other nations. The palestinians, arriving after the Israelites are now giving the moral high ground.
Israel has existed since 1947, right? So do they get a fresh slate?
 

FZ+

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The Palestinian state doesn't exist. Does their slate remain permanently clean?:wink:
 

Zero

Originally posted by FZ+
The Palestinian state doesn't exist. Does their slate remain permanently clean?:wink:
I'm thinking YES!! LOL
 

kat

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Originally posted by FZ+
Actually kat, you are really missing the point. Thw whole point of saying Israel has no moral high ground is in fact that on average, there is no such thing as a moral high ground.
The point? I think you need to re-read what I've posted.
There is no such thing as "goodness credits", which say you can murder someone so long as you lead a nice happy life beforehand. russ's statement is undoubtedly wrong. Though Zero was goaded into being also inaccurate in his response.
You seem to be re-iterating what I've already said....

But if we follow your curious argument
I'm sorry, I must be missing something..what curious argument is that that I've made????
 
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Zero

I think we are all missing something...before things get too far afield, can we start again, at the first point of confusion?
 

FZ+

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The point? I think you need to re-read what I've posted.
The point is that you are nit-picking at something that does not have significance - the whole point is that Israel does not have a moral high ground. But meanwhile, you make statements that lead to downright absurd conclusions. eg.

Canada doesn't exactly have a pretty history either..acadians? wartime internment of Japanese Canadians? Quebec seperatism? treatment of their natives?
If 30 years ago I murdered someone, 30 years pass and having not murdered another person..am I morally superior to someone murdering a person under similar circumstances today? I hardly think so.
Where you somehow draw significance to historical incidents.
 

kat

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Originally posted by FZ+
The point is that you are nit-picking at something that does not have significance - the whole point is that Israel does not have a moral high ground. But meanwhile, you make statements that lead to downright absurd conclusions. eg.
Ah,hmmm..I think you're reading more in to my comments then are really there. I'm not "nit-picking" the point should be that no-one has the moral high ground unless they have a "clean slate" and although the point I would like to make isn't even hinted at..IMO instead of considering an immeasurable and in reality non-existant "moral high-ground' it would be better to consider motivation and resolutions, giving consideration to all of the politics that affect...both sides of the green line.



Where you somehow draw significance to historical incidents.
There is significance in historical incidents, perhaps something in the manner of "tests of fire"? I don't know..if all "mature", democratic nations have gone through similar experiences then it would seem to make sense to recognize that, at the very least. I don't think any of the nations you've listed can take a "holier then thou" stance..they all have dirty hands, and rather nasty histories. Perhaps they can give insight through experience..but IMO none can take the stance of having a "moral high-ground", quite certianly not Britian or France as much of the issues that exist in the ME are a direct result of their own politics.
 
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Zero

You all know how I feel...answering brutality with brutality is hardly a prrof of moral superiority. The Israeli response to terrorism has always been violence, very often leaving innocent children dead.
 

kat

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Originally posted by Zero
You all know how I feel...answering brutality with brutality is hardly a prrof of moral superiority. The Israeli response to terrorism has always been violence, very often leaving innocent children dead.
Yes, I'm quite sure we all know how you feel:wink: but the question was
Which countries do you feel have the moral high ground and Why?
 

Zero

Originally posted by kat
Yes, I'm quite sure we all know how you feel:wink: but the question was
I think I listed Canada and Guam?
 

FZ+

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I'm not "nit-picking" the point should be that no-one has the moral high ground
Exactly. That was Zero's original point, and russ was wrong to disagree with it and say Israel had a plain moral high ground.

it would be better to consider motivation and resolutions, giving consideration to all of the politics that affect...both sides of the green line.
You want to repeat this to Bush, Sharon et al each time they say that the only solution to terrorism is military force, and that the Israel conflict, or indeed any conflict, is another case of them vs us, good vs evil, and that there is no point in trying to understand the terrorists?

I don't think any of the nations you've listed can take a "holier then thou" stance..they all have dirty hands, and rather nasty histories.
But this is in direct contradiction to your first statement. By this sort of thinking, most nations can claim a moral high ground over Israel, because their hands, though dirty, are less dirty that Israels.
 
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I'm guessing that Guam was just a random example, but you do know that Guam is part of the United States don't you?

And why Canada? Didn't they also have troops involved in the invasion of Afghanistan?

You also listed the United States prior to the innauguration of GWB, what about Rawanda? Desert Fox? Iran Contra? the list goes on for quite awhile spanning both Republican and Democratic presidents.
 

Nereid

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
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How about Norway?

Not only does it seek to devote a high percentage of its GDP to third world aid, it aslo actively seeks to resolve conflicts through neutral mediation; though they didn't succeed, the Oslo accords were a serious attempt by a small nation with no stake whatsoever in the Middle East. More recently, their efforts to bring peace to Sri Lanka.

For #2, how about the Netherlands?

Question: in what way does it make sense to talk of morality when referring to nations? Surely it's the government (or perhaps the clique, political party, monarchy, ...).
 

drag

Science Advisor
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Originally posted by kat
I'm curious, which countries people feel are morally superior to Israel. Which countries do you feel have the moral high ground and Why?
That's like asking which animals have better legs. :wink:
Every country has its share of wrong doings and right
doings (not to mention that morality is also a relative
concept but in this forum I presume that we're using the
default morality - that which is accepted in modern democracies,
despite the fact that, apparently, some people's morality
standards here appear to differ from that default considrably :wink:).

Anyway, I think that you should adress the specific aspect
that you're refering to in this case and then we can proceed.

Live long and prosper.
 

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