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More Mammoths

  1. Oct 28, 2004 #1
    I feel like discussing Mammoths. Some of us may remember http://www4.nau.edu/amqua/v29n2/jarkov_mammoth.htm [Broken] in 1999 that made the "Good Morning America" TV-news. After that it became silent again and Mammoths are history. However...

    I happen to know the guy on the left hand side of the http://www4.nau.edu/amqua/v29n2/images/mammoth_tusks.gif [Broken] pretty well -he is truly amazing- and I'm allowed to peek over his shoulder every once and a while -on the cutting edge of paleonthology. There have been made a couple of exciting Mammoth mummy discoveries that just about nullify that Jarkov Mammoth. It also shows us that we have no clue whatsoever about the real character of climate of the ice age and that's my speciality.

    So, shall I proceed?
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  2. jcsd
  3. Oct 28, 2004 #2


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    Yes, Please.
  4. Oct 29, 2004 #3
    yes, please do proceed, andre.

    i'm particularly interested in the conditions under which these animals would have frozen. that is, if the local climate appears to have quickly become cold or if it slowly cooled and the mammoths died in normal (for them) cold weather. do they know if these animals froze to death or froze after some other natural death?

    have they thawed any of the mammoths?
  5. Oct 29, 2004 #4
    Okay, I'll be happy trying to answer all these questions. the main subject of this thread, then will be the http://newsfromrussia.com/main/2004/04/29/53711.html [Broken] (nothing scientific published yet) and especially:

    Exactly! Excellent observation. It puzzles me too. Things simply do not add up at all.

    More later.
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  6. Oct 29, 2004 #5
    I just got the word that the very impressive material from the "Yukagir Mammoth" that I got, is still under moratorium, until end November after a conference. Please remind me by 17 November. In the mean time we can have a look at the existing material. A working img function would greatly enhance the posibilities to underline your story with educational visual support material. It seems that PF is about the last forum without that.
  7. Oct 29, 2004 #6
    Let's start off with the http://www.yukonmuseums.ca/mammoth/ [Broken]

    Let's have a look at the http://www.yukonmuseums.ca/mammoth/abstrmol-mor.htm [Broken] (notice the name Dick Mol, he is worlds Mr Mammoth nr1)


    We will answer that question. :smile:

    Anybody interested in attending the 4th conference next year?
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  8. Oct 29, 2004 #7
    Next year, if you mean the Hot Springs Conference, it is the World of Elephants which is somehow different from the Mammoth Conferences. Since they had that 3rd one last year, the next will be five years after that I think, so 2008?
    I think this is the 2nd World of Elephants Congress...
  9. Nov 10, 2004 #8
    There is a new book, called:

    "Discovering the Siberian Mammoth".

    It even has an ISDN 90-808949-I-5 The first author is, you guessed right, Dick Mol. I have a few copies here. It is sensational. It's not in the bookstore (yet). The moratorium ends next week 17 november when it will be introduced at a congress, presenting the latest -most stunning discovery- to date, that Yugakir Mammoth that I opened the thread with.

    It is definitely beating everything we have about Mammoths so far.

    There is a place with a few thousend copies of the book but Dick has no definite distribution plan yet. So how are we going to get the news to the world?
  10. Nov 11, 2004 #9
    High population of herbivores... does that suggest then that conditions were different during the time of the mammoth than we might have guessed?
  11. Nov 11, 2004 #10
    Yes that's the main mammoth message. It has puzzled scientist over two centuries how those pachiderms could survive arctic conditions in the middle of the last ice age. Mammots are the symbol of this impossibility and hence they are not on the scientific agenda.

    However, evidence is mounting that climate has been very enigmatic througout the Pleistocene (2,5 million years - 11,670 years) indeed, especially in the late part. But lot's of independent evidence is emerging telling the same message.

    There have been trees growing practically on the North Pole only a few thousand years ago:

    http://www.awi-bremerhaven.de/Publications/Kra2003a.pdf [Broken]

    It should be clear that our understanding of the true character of the Pleistocene and the early Holocene is likely to be totally wrong.
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  12. Nov 16, 2004 #11
    That's today here. Dick Mol is presenting the study about the new Yukagir mammoth in the conference in Yarkutsk (Russia). This is supposed the be the prime eyecatcher on Expo 2005 in Japan.

    The next evening I'll link to a few details about that astonishing Yukagir mammoth

    About that new booklet I introduced two posts upwards (size european A4 - 36 pages at least one picture on every page) about Mammots including the details of the last discoveries like the astonishing Yukagir Mammith. It would sell for ten Euros (about the cost price). For the moment I will take care of the mailing costs, unless the success would ruin my financial situation. PM me if you are interested and we will see how we can deal with the dirty details.

    For the record this is not an commercial intend. I will loose money anyhow but that's not important.
  13. Nov 17, 2004 #12
    Presenting the Yukagir Mammoth

    Today the results of the investigation of the Yukagir Mammoth have been presented in Yarkutsk, Siberia and as promised, http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk/yukagir.jpg [Broken] he is.

    Some technical details from the presentation of Dick Mol:

    Autumn of 2002 discovered by Mr. V. Gorokhov near Maxunuokha River Yakutia, Arctic Siberia, Russia (GPS 71° 52’ 988” North - 140° 34’ 873” East).
    September 2002, head extracted from the permafrost.
    June 2003 brief survey CERPOLEX/Mammuthus, Mammoth Museum in Yakutsk,. More remains discovered.
    September 2003 excavated front leg and parts of the intestines.

    Carbon dating:
    Three samples of bone, skin and hair (June 2003):
    Bone 18,510 +/- 80 BP
    Skin 18,510 +/- 100 BP
    Hair 18,680 +/- 100 BP
    Average: 18,560 +/- 50 BP
    Cross-check (AMS) Tucson, Arizona, USA, :
    Bone (rib) 18,160 +/- 110 BP

    First impression average-sized male
    Large spirally-twisted tusks typical for an old individual
    Entire left front leg: shoulder height 272.5 cm
    Combined data leg forefoot: 282.9 cm.

    Note the latitude 71 degrees North. Awfully close to the North Pole, I say. :surprised:
    I wonder why there not a trace of Mammoths in the Scientific Basis of the IPCC. (Global warming)
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  14. Nov 22, 2004 #13
    The smoking gun

    I wonder why it's so silent here. Did you guys not find the link to the pics that I hid somewhere?

    http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk/yukagir.jpg [Broken]

    Anyway, this is an outstanding study about the environment of the Mammoths:

    http://www.awi-bremerhaven.de/Publications/Sch2002g.pdf [Broken]

    I would recommend to study it thorougly and find the smoking gun to the extinction of the Mammoths. It's in there.

    Earlier I said

    I couldn't dream for such clear evidence. Now, what would be that smoking gun, my dear Watson?

    Hint: a old thread here is pointing to the right direction.
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  15. Nov 23, 2004 #14
    What is this? Don't you guy like solving riddles.

    Think isotopes.
  16. Nov 23, 2004 #15
    I like riddles, but I don't know anything about this one. In fact, I dont' even know exactly what the riddle is, much less can guess at the answer. This is to be expected, since I know virtually nothing about prehistoric wheather.

    Sorry :(
  17. Nov 24, 2004 #16
    Okay, I have the first concept of the paper ready about 8 pages, intended to be readable for non-specialists.

    If you'd like to look at it PM me. I hope to get it published somewhere.
  18. Nov 26, 2004 #17
    The other day I hinted that http://www.awi-bremerhaven.de/Publications/Sch2002g.pdf [Broken] contains the smoking gun for the extinction of the mammoth.

    That smoking gun is Fig 5 on page 7, the fourth graph, d13C. And the murder weapon was the clathrate gun. This is why we think to know (almost for sure)

    Clathrate gun kills Mammoths
    by Andre and cowriters


    The extinction of the mega fauna of the Mammoth steppe at the end of the Pleistocene is investigated. Using some examples of mummified Mammoth remains, we contend that the normal biotope for Mammoths is an arid steppe, not an arctic tundra like the current locations in North Siberia where most mammoth remains are recovered. We review traditional possible causes for extinctions (ill, kill, chill). The evidence for immense epidemics and over hunting appears to be increasingly inadequate while climate change gains substantiation. More than possible temperature changes, it is specifically the widespread increase in precipitation at the termination of the Younger Dryas 11,500 years ago, which appears to be the main culprit.

    We propose that the clathrate gun -massive and multiple release events of methane gas from ocean (methane hydrate or clathrate) sediments is the direct cause of that change in precipitation pattern. We investigate independent sources of evidence: scars on the ocean floor on clathrate fields; precipitation changes in several proxies; short carbon dioxide spikes detected by fossil leaf stomata; calibration platforms of radiocarbon dating and stable carbon isotope behavior. We estimate the numerical effect of clathrate gun events on atmospheric gas concentration and isotope ratios with some basic calculations. We infer that the clathrate gun has considerable and immediate effect on numerous proxies. This puts question marks to the current interpretations of events. like the stable isotopes in ice cores that are assumed to be paleo-thermometers. We speculate about the required revisions of ice age theories.


    The paper is over 11 pages and growing with an additional reference list of three pages.

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  19. Nov 26, 2004 #18
    Oops, do I have to go to theory development now?

    Especially since I'm forming a new idea about the mummification of Mammoths. They were not deep frozen. It couldn't be, considering the long lasting warmer climate in Siberia especially during the holocene thermal maximum around 8000 years ago when the area was boreal spruce forest and peat bogs. Yet, The mammoth mummies survived all that.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2004
  20. Nov 26, 2004 #19
    I have the honor of translating the concept book that will be telling the story of the discovery of the http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk/yukagir.jpg [Broken] from Dutch to English.

    I hope that the author agrees to be one of the coauthors of that aforementioned paper. He certainly agrees on the first paragraph.

    But the work is hard. Deadlines are killing. It must be available at the Expo 2005 in Japan.

    A little bit of tiny yet world news. The Woolly Mammoth also has Musth glands like elephants.

    http://www.thai-elephants.com/anatomy.html [Broken]

    It was first discovered on the Yukagir Mammoth
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  21. Nov 28, 2004 #20
    I do wonder where everybody went. Let me quote a part of the paper, dealing with the relation between http://www.awi-bremerhaven.de/Publications/Sch2002g.pdf [Broken] and the clathrate gun and some quantitative estimations. I consider the latter the weakest part because I have to make some assumptions.

    Now please, I'd appreciate some feedback. Is this understandable or rubbish?
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