Mozart's Symphonies: Definitive Number & Listing

[The Bob]

I am making a list of the music I have. The problem I have come across is http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Playlist?source=WGMS&date=200504260236.

For those of you that have read the website without knowing what you are looking for then I will explain. The rest of you will know what I might say.

I was wondering if anyone knows, for sure, how many symphonies Mozart actually wrote as this website says it could be 55 or more. I also thought he wrote 41, therefore finishing with the 'Jupiter'.

If anyone could help it would be appreciated.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[zoobyshoe]

Speculation:

They may be including some juvenile symphonettas or something, that are generally not included in the mature works. Really great stuff for a 10 year old, but not really performance worthy compared to the 41.

Or, they may be referring to suspected symphonies that were never published and are now lost.

 

[DaveC426913]

A quick check on Wikipedia reavels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%F6chel_Verzeichnis, which also points to this list.

 

[Mozart]

Why don't you just ask me? I am after all the reincarnation of Mozart.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yeah, that's weird to get an e-mail saying "Mozart has just replied to the thread `Mozart's Symphonies.'"

 

[jtbell]

How many symphonies Mozart wrote, basically depends on what you count as a "symphony". Mozart himself didn't assign the canonical numbers for his numbered symphonies; someone did that after he died, I don't remember when. The pieces that are now generally accepted as "unnumbered symphonies" (the one with Köchel catalog numbers but without "symphony" numbers) were originally considered to be divertimentos, serenades, etc. There are also several collections that Mozart made of his stage music or extracts from operas, that are sometimes considered to be "symphonies."

In the late 1970s or early 1980s, the Academy of Ancient Music recorded everything by Mozart that could possibly be considered a symphony, and came up with a total of 66 or 67.

 

[fourier jr]

bah... Mozart... :yuck: & why symphonies? double :yuck: gimme a small orchestra or soloist/duo/trio playing some obscure baroque stuff over anything by Mozart or any symphony any day

 

[zoobyshoe]

bah... Mozart... :yuck: & why symphonies? double :yuck: gimme a small orchestra or soloist/duo/trio playing some obscure baroque stuff over anything by Mozart or any symphony any day

Y'know who's cool...Buxtehude.

 

[hitssquad]

How old was Mozart when he wrote K16 (Symphony #1)

They may be including some juvenile symphonettas or something, that are generally not included in the mature works. Really great stuff for a 10 year old, but not really performance worthy

http://www.raptusassociation.org/symphoniegeschichte1e.html

--
Grove reports that already at the age of eight, in the year 1764, Mozart wrote his first symphony while staying in England [...] Grove lists as his first symphonies K16, K19a (which was recently re-discovered), K19, K22 and K45a
--


Catharine Cox estimated that Mozart's IQ was 165.
http://www.google.com/search?q=mozart+iq+cox

At an age of 8 years and 0 months, Mozart would have had an adult equivalent IQ of around 82.5. At an age of 8 years and 6 months, Mozart would have had an adult equivalent IQ of around 87.7. For perspective, an IQ of 85 was the old standard upper-threshold for mild mental retardation. (The new standard upper-threshold is an IQ of 70.)

 

[Andrew Mason]

I was wondering if anyone knows, for sure, how many symphonies Mozart actually wrote as this website says it could be 55 or more. I also thought he wrote 41, therefore finishing with the 'Jupiter'.

If anyone could help it would be appreciated.

This site catalogues all of Mozart's symphonies. Apparently there are 57 symphonies or symphony parts:

http://www.mozartproject.org/compositions/ca_13.html

AM

 

[The Bob]

Why don't you just ask me? I am after all the reincarnation of Mozart.

I didn't know that we had a member called Mozart. I don't really pay attention.

As to the thread, from what has been offered I get the feeling there are 41 symphonies and parts of another up to (possibly) 67. Still I am not sure how many I should catalogue for my music list.

As for:

bah... Mozart... :yuck: & why symphonies? double :yuck: gimme a small orchestra or soloist/duo/trio playing some obscure baroque stuff over anything by Mozart or any symphony any day

I do not think there is anyone from with Mozart. In fact, personally, I like almost all known composers of the Baroque, Classical and Romantic periods. I think people that appreciate music are put off by Mozart because everyone knows his name. Anyone anywhere does. He is one of the typical people that you name when you say 'Classical Music Composer'. This original thinking lead me to seek other people like Bruckner, Mahler and even Tippett. Recently I have come back to Mozart because his music is simple but very clever in a way that people can take a while to appreciate. He is the development of Haydn and other Classical composers and the basis of many great composers studies. Study his life and he becomes even more amazing (well not as much as Roderigo or Delius but still...).

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[fourier jr]

I think people that appreciate music are put off by Mozart because everyone knows his name. Anyone anywhere does. He is one of the typical people that you name when you say 'Classical Music Composer'.

that's PRECISELY why I don't usally go for mozart. he's got some good piano sonatas though, like that one on the truman show soundtrack. the only 'mainstream' composers i really listen to are bach (anything but esp cello suites), beethoven (not the symphonies) & handel (just water music & royal fireworks music). right now I'm into locatelli, biber, heinichen, schmelzer, telemann, geminiani, vivaldi (absolutely not the 4 seasons), marini, veracini & others. i also like latin-american guitar like lauro, ponce, barrios-mangore, villa-lobos & rodrigo.

re: buxtehude I read that he was one of js bach's major influences & idols but i haven't heard anything by him yet. i should check him out since I'm already into stuff from that period.

 

[zoobyshoe]

re: buxtehude I read that he was one of js bach's major influences & idols but i haven't heard anything by him yet. i should check him out since I'm already into stuff from that period.

If you like Bach's organ music you will almost certainly like Buxtehude. The influence becomes obvious pretty quickly.

The interesting story is that Bach almost took a post at Buxtehude's church where he would have become the older man's successor in time, but the position required that he marry one of Buxtehude's daughters, and she is said to have been...lacking in appeal. He declined.

 

[The Bob]

that's PRECISELY why I don't usally go for mozart.

That is cool. Everyone has their own taste and reasons and that one is as good as any.

right now I'm into locatelli, biber, heinichen, schmelzer, telemann, geminiani, vivaldi (absolutely not the 4 seasons), marini, veracini & others. i also like latin-american guitar like lauro, ponce, barrios-mangore, villa-lobos & rodrigo.

I will have to look some of these up. I can't say I have heard some of them.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[fourier jr]

That is cool. Everyone has their own taste and reasons and that one is as good as any.

mozart would probably be a good 'intro' composer for someone who is thinking about listening to some classical but I've branched out a bit from the 'mainstream' stuff. same with movies, tv, books, etc. i still haven't seen titanic & haven't read the da vinci code, & probably never will.

re: looking up stuff I highly recommend biber's violin sonatas played by either romanesca or john holloway. romanesca makes them sound like morning/sunshine; holloway makes them sound like evening/nighttime. i love them both & the romanesca discs have a couple extra things on them too. amazon.com has samples

 

[The Bob]

mozart would probably be a good 'intro' composer for someone who is thinking about listening to some classical but I've branched out a bit from the 'mainstream' stuff. same with movies, tv, books, etc. i still haven't seen titanic & haven't read the da vinci code, & probably never will.

re: looking up stuff I highly recommend biber's violin sonatas played by either romanesca or john holloway. romanesca makes them sound like morning/sunshine; holloway makes them sound like evening/nighttime. i love them both & the romanesca discs have a couple extra things on them too. amazon.com has samples

I will look Biber and some of the others mentioned in this thread. I find it interesting to see who else is around that I do not know. I have had to stay to the 'norm' because of the way I compose and the way I learn from the 'norm' but I need the others to allow me to see how others do it.

Cheers.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[marlon]

If you are not sure whether a certain piece of music is written by Mozart, there is one universal criterium to check it : play it backwards. If it still makes ingenious musical sense, it was written by Mozart

marlon, the biggest Mozart fan around...voi che sapete che cosa è amor...

PS ever considered the Mozart Forum ? http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/index.php?

 

[fourier jr]

If you are not sure whether a certain piece of music is written by Mozart, there is one universal criterium to check it : play it backwards. If it still makes ingenious musical sense, it was written by Mozart

i don't know if i believe that. i'll believe that when i see it somewhere else. people say bach was the undisputed master of that sort of stuff, with his fuges/canons with inversion & so on. that's what art of fugue is all about & it's considered an epic masterpiece, and only one of bach's works.

 

[marlon]

i don't know if i believe that. i'll believe that when i see it somewhere else. people say bach was the undisputed master of that sort of stuff, with his fuges/canons with inversion & so on. that's what art of fugue is all about & it's considered an epic masterpiece, and only one of bach's works.

you don't have to believe me, just check it out for yourself...

and it's Bach...

marlon

 

[The Bob]

and it's Bach...

:rofl: I have found my music buddy :rofl:

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[fourier jr]

sooner or later you guys will learn to appreciate some real music i'll have to read more about that mozart stuff; maybe I've underestimated him as a composer

 

[zoobyshoe]

i'll have to read more about that mozart stuff; maybe I've underestimated him as a composer

I can't put my finger on what it is, but there is something emotionally unsubstantial about Mozart that I can't get past. He never spills his guts emotionally like Beethoven or Bach, or even Chopin.

 

[fourier jr]

i always imagine bach's music as cerebral/meditative/academic, not emotional/passionate. some stuff really is, like art of fugue or some of his sonatas for violin & harpsichord. i always seem to forget about the other stuff like parts of the solo violin & solo cello stuff or the b minor mass, goldberg variations, etc. i think the opposite of beethoven though. beethoven's stuff i always imagine as incredibly dramatic & emotional & not calm, meditative, etc. it's not true though; his late string quartets sound like that. weird.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Bach is most obviously emotional in the "big" works for organ. The famous one, of course, whose name I needn't even mention, but also the Passacalia & Fugue in c minor, and almost all of the big preludes and fugues. Well-tempered Claviers I&II have a lot of very emotional pieces. There are a lot scattered in the partitas and suites for keyboard. It has been considered "improper" to play Bach emotionally for quite some time now, so most people dry it up quite a bit. Bach in Mendelsohn's day, people played him quite romantically.

 

[fourier jr]

Bach is most obviously emotional in the "big" works for organ. The famous one, of course, whose name I needn't even mention, but also the Passacalia & Fugue in c minor, and almost all of the big preludes and fugues.

yes the f major fugue (bwv 540) is my favourite. & of course the c minor passacaglia & fugue is good too; i think he wrote that after his 1st wife died.

Well-tempered Claviers I&II have a lot of very emotional pieces. There are a lot scattered in the partitas and suites for keyboard. It has been considered "improper" to play Bach emotionally for quite some time now, so most people dry it up quite a bit. Bach in Mendelsohn's day, people played him quite romantically.

yeah pablo casals played the cello suites emotionally ("romantically"?) which is what made them exciting (& him a cello legend) rather than dusty boring old exercises. then that style went out of fashion for some reason, but i think people are becoming more interested in that style again. I'm not much of a fan of WTC but it has its moments. i really like the cello suites & solo violin sonatas & partitas though; i must have more than 30 recordings combined of just that stuff alone. the 3rd violin partita has some of the happiest music bach ever composed in it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

i'm not much of a fan of WTC but it has its moments.

Overall, I like Book II better than Book I. Alot of people have never even heard Book II. Glen Gould is a sure bet for any Bach keyboard stuff. Always very exiting, novel.

i really like the cello suites & solo violin sonatas & partitas though; i must have more than 30 recordings combined of just that stuff alone. the 3rd violin partita has some of the happiest music bach ever composed in it.

Hehehehehe, I have about 20 different recordings of the Goldbergs.

I have the cello suites by Yo-Yo, and the violin partitas by Yehudi. I haven't quite absorbed either very well yet.

That's the thing about Bach. He is so huge that two separate people can love him and not even be familiar with the same pieces. All of his vocal music is pretty much terra incognita to me.

You know, A Musical Offering?

 

[The Bob]

sooner or later you guys will learn to appreciate some real music i'll have to read more about that mozart stuff; maybe I've underestimated him as a composer

That is cool but can you post some of the composers that you like then? I am trying to widen my horizons even more then they are now. Simply because I have asked about Mozart does not mean he is the be all and end all. I was simply trying to find the actual number of symphonies he wrote. I listen to all sorts of music.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[marlon]

:rofl: I have found my music buddy :rofl:

The Bob (2004 ©)

you sure have :)

marlon

 

[fourier jr]

You know, A Musical Offering?

yeah I've got the version by leonhardt/kuijken/kuijken, etc. it sounds pretty dry, like art of fugue

That is cool but can you post some of the composers that you like then? I am trying to widen my horizons even more then they are now. Simply because I have asked about Mozart does not mean he is the be all and end all. I was simply trying to find the actual number of symphonies he wrote. I listen to all sorts of music.

i listed a bunch of the composeres I'm into now on the 1st page. it's mostly baroque stuff or latin-american guitar

 

[The Bob]

i listed a bunch of the composeres I'm into now on the 1st page. it's mostly baroque stuff or latin-american guitar

I know. I was just saying incase more people had a look at this thread.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[zoobyshoe]

yeah I've got the version by leonhardt/kuijken/kuijken, etc. it sounds pretty dry, like art of fugue

A Musical Offering is something I only just heard for the first time last year. I was intrigued and want to give it more attention at some point. (Leonhardt, incidently, is my least favorite interpreter of Bach.)

 

[fourier jr]

I know. I was just saying incase more people had a look at this thread.

The Bob (2004 ©)

well in that case:

bach (anything but esp cello suites)
beethoven (not the symphonies)
handel (just water music & royal fireworks music)
locatelli
biber
heinichen
schmelzer
telemann
geminiani
vivaldi (absolutely not the 4 seasons)
marini
veracini
latin-american guitar like lauro, ponce, barrios-mangore, villa-lobos & rodrigo.

 

[The Bob]

well in that case:

Cheers. Really appreciate it.

The Bob (2004 ©)