Near Death Studies - Consciousness After Death

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  • #76
Ivan Seeking
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You have offered no links to support your claims. The only acceptable links are those providing documented information about the claims themselves. No theories. Also acceptable are papers published in appropriate scientific journals.

If no links are provided within a day, and your post will be deleted until supporting information is provided.
 
  • #77
ideasrule
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Do you seriously believe that a drugged and demented brain that's on the very verge of death can be trusted to produce reliable observations? Even normal brains often hallucinate. Most people don't realize, during dreams, that they're dreaming because dreams seem so real and vivid. A person near death can easily assume that his dream was real, especially if it conforms to his religious beliefs, whereas the same dream would have been dismissed as a dream if it happened on a regular night.
 
  • #78
Ivan Seeking
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Do you seriously believe that a drugged and demented brain that's on the very verge of death can be trusted to produce reliable observations? Even normal brains often hallucinate. Most people don't realize, during dreams, that they're dreaming because dreams seem so real and vivid. A person near death can easily assume that his dream was real, especially if it conforms to his religious beliefs, whereas the same dream would have been dismissed as a dream if it happened on a regular night.
To be fair, I know that there are some cases of people allegedly describing the ER or operating room, the people in the room, the operating instruments, etc, when they shouldn't have been able to do so; and even events that occurred when they were technically brain dead. But proper references are still required. I don't know if any of these claims are published in a proper paper. In the event that these are only stories coming from medical workers, or claims made in unpublished papers, the claims would be purely anecdotal.
 
  • #79
ideasrule
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To be fair, I know that there are some cases of people allegedly describing the ER or operating room, the people in the room, the operating instruments, etc, when they shouldn't have been able to do so; and even events that occurred when they were technically brain dead.
I'm aware of that, but I was responding to LouieHussey, who seems to have 100% trust in the patients' words. Cases where dying people accurately describe details in the operating room are harder to explain.
 
  • #80
ZapperZ
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Even normal brains often hallucinate. Most people don't realize, during dreams, that they're dreaming because dreams seem so real and vivid. A person near death can easily assume that his dream was real, especially if it conforms to his religious beliefs, whereas the same dream would have been dismissed as a dream if it happened on a regular night.
It is interesting that they HAVE done studies to mimic and "out of body" experience to "normal" brain. See:

[1] H. Henrik Ehrsson Science v.317, p.104824 (2007).
[2] Bigna Lenggenhager et al. Science v.317, p. 1096 (2007).

.. and a review of these can be found (with suitable subscription access) at http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070820/full/news070820-9.html.

From what I gather, the brain that is under "stress", such as near death, will undergo even more trauma and "random" activity, almost like the sleep state when dreams occurs. That's why some time you get reports of incoherent "vision", while others the person can also hear and think they "see" what's going on around them even when they are unconscious. In other words, it is HARDER to trick normal, healthy brains into doing this trick, such as an "out of body" experience, than a "sick, stressed" brain.

So, like you, I certainly won't buy purely anecdotal "evidence" that was brought up here by LouieHussey. There have been way too many of those, and people should know better than try to use those has convincing evidence.

Zz.
 
  • #83
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I suppose its only anecdotal if you take out the fact that the guy who went to heaven was depressed for the rest of his life because heaven was so amazing, and the guy who went to hell changed his entire life completely.
 
  • #84
Evo
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I suppose its only anecdotal if you take out the fact that the guy who went to heaven was depressed for the rest of his life because heaven was so amazing, and the guy who went to hell changed his entire life completely.
They're stories, there are no facts.
 
  • #85
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True no facts. Only the human experience. Only self-realization, which is only relevant to those who experience it. And self-realization and raw human emotion, they passed lie detector tests btw, is far more convincing. Unfortunately perhaps none of us will experience what they did in our lifetimes. But maybe in our death times.
 
  • #86
ZapperZ
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True no facts. Only the human experience. Only self-realization, which is only relevant to those who experience it. And self-realization and raw human emotion, they passed lie detector tests btw, is far more convincing. Unfortunately perhaps none of us will experience what they did in our lifetimes. But maybe in our death times.
But the problem is that "human experience" has been known to be highly unreliable. I can show you many studies in which people will swear that so-and-so happened when it never did!

Still, there's a missing point here that is being overlooked. The problem isn't that these are anecdotal evidence. The problem here is (i) that people do not know the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence and (ii) the perception that anecdotal evidence is "good enough" to be accepted as valid evidence.

This IS still a science forum, and in fact, populated by many people who are expert scientists. One shouldn't argue for something to be valid based on anecdotal evidence, and then act surprised when challenged or confronted with the validity of such evidence. Is such a challenge from people who are used to examining the nature and validity of evidence such an unexpected surprise? I will, in fact, say that if all one can come up with are such weak examples, then it only serve to further weaken the evidence. That is certainly true in my book, where not only am I not impressed by such evidence, it merely confirms my assertion that these are pseudosicentific imagination in which, after so many years of proclamation, it still can't get out of first base to show that it exists.

Zz.
 
  • #87
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True enough, but how is one to say that the subconscious thoughts of the human mind, which is largely not understood, cannot express or show our science obsessed lives that there are other ways of processing thought and thinking through either dreams or other trance-like forms of communication which have been used for thousands of years. That is also to say that ancient technology very well may have been lost in the development of man where we are today. Remember science is about the physical world not the spiritual or subconscious, whether or not heaven or hell are tangible actual places, perhaps this is where our conscious goes afterwards, since our brains can have these near death experiences whos to say that those places we see are not where our minds go to if we were to stay dead. If the person who was supposed to be dead wakes up again, if they stayed dead, it is very possible that they would have stayed right where their minds just were. Perhaps science will never explain this phenomenon, I know, I know, lack of oxygen to the brain etc., but many different people all seeing the same processes in their minds, couldn't one conclude that if they had gone towards the "light at the end of the tunnel" thats where one's mind would stay? Perhaps a science forum should not be discussing this issue of the consciousness if it cannot explore most of the human brain.
 
  • #88
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True enough, but how is one to say that the subconscious thoughts of the human mind, which is largely not understood, cannot express or show our science obsessed lives that there are other ways of processing thought and thinking through either dreams or other trance-like forms of communication which have been used for thousands of years.
Come again? Where are valid evidence for such a thing?

Furthermore, you are making speculations on what we don't know and haven't been proven to be valid. If we are playing games about what is possible in the future, I can also speculate that what you say could be possible will also not come true! You have zero evidence to prove that I'm wrong.

Remember science is about the physical world not the spiritual or subconscious, whether or not heaven or hell are tangible actual places, perhaps this is where our conscious goes afterwards, since our brains can have these near death experiences whos to say that those places we see are not where our minds go to if we were to stay dead. If the person who was supposed to be dead wakes up again, if they stayed dead, it is very possible that they would have stayed right where their minds just were. Perhaps science will never explain this phenomenon, I know, I know, lack of oxygen to the brain etc., but many different people all seeing the same processes in their minds, couldn't one conclude that if they had gone towards the "light at the end of the tunnel" thats where one's mind would stay? Perhaps a science forum should not be discussing this issue of the consciousness if it cannot explore most of the human brain.
If you accept something that hasn't been shown to be scientifically valid as a fact, then that's your problem. I can only hope that you do not depend your life on it, and subject the lives on your loved ones on it as well.

Zz.
 

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