Nebraska nuclear plant thread.

[minerva]

There's so much "omg, that's just lies, it's all a coverup, Big Nuclear Industry Conspiracy!" ******** out there around the internet about Fort Calhoun, it's absolutely driving me nuts.

 

[URob]

Is there any news on this? I saw a clip saying that there is a 10 mile evacuation zone around the plant. Any weather forecasts? Is the water level still rising?

 

[NUCENG]

Is there any news on this? I saw a clip saying that there is a 10 mile evacuation zone around the plant. Any weather forecasts? Is the water level still rising?

Saw the same thing on a conspiracy blog 24 hours ago. It was bogus then and is still most probably bogus today, Unless you believe (conspiracy on) President Obama can impose a total news blackout (conspiracy off) AND MAKE IT WORK! The fact that we can reach this forrum is pretty good evidence he hasn't.

 

[URob]

In that case any word on the plant and the water levels? The clip I saw showed water around all of the buildings.
Pretty good bogus clip. I'm from New Zealand so not familiar with the U.S. news networks, does ABC 8 News not exist?
I assume flood water is lapping at the front door of the power plant as shown unless someone has got a massive budget for CGI...

 

[URob]

http://www.klkntv.com/story/15007832/fort-calhoun-correction-evacuations
ABC 8 retraction of their evacuation story.
Still love to know what the predictions are for water levels.

 

[NUCENG]

http://www.klkntv.com/story/15007832/fort-calhoun-correction-evacuations
ABC 8 retraction of their evacuation story.
Still love to know what the predictions are for water levels.

lOOK AT THE VARIOUS STATIONS ALONG THE mISSOURI HERE:
http://water.weather.gov/ahps2/forecasts.php?wfo=oax

 

[robinson]

http://www.examiner.com/human-right...looding-event-above-cooper-nuclear-site-video

This is one story I really hope in a few months we will not be discussing.

 

[zapperzero]

lOOK AT THE VARIOUS STATIONS ALONG THE mISSOURI HERE

caps lock accident?

 

[Joe Neubarth]

I do not know much about our river systems. I know my geography, but my understanding of flooding techniques and blasting levees to prevent flooding downstream is just not my shtick.

So, with that in mind, when I heard that a busted levee raised the river level several inches, I scratched my head and totally ignored the story.

Because of my primitive knowledge, I thought that levees were used to hold the river back from flooding the surrounding countryside. Now, with that thought in mind, something tells me that if a levy broke, the river level should go down not up.

I have since found out that it was flooded farmland that had a water level higher than the river. Amazing that in a crisis an individual or several individuals could decided they don't give a damn and raise the level of the river. If that is enough to flood Omaha or other cities downstream, it makes me wonder if the farmers could be subject to a class action suit for partial responsibility to the communities downstream

 

[NUCENG]

I do not know much about our river systems. I know my geography, but my understanding of flooding techniques and blasting levees to prevent flooding downstream is just not my shtick.

So, with that in mind, when I heard that a busted levee raised the river level several inches, I scratched my head and totally ignored the story.

Because of my primitive knowledge, I thought that levees were used to hold the river back from flooding the surrounding countryside. Now, with that thought in mind, something tells me that if a levy broke, the river level should go down not up.

Could somebody please explain how the reverse could happen?

There was an initial levee failure further north that flooded some agricultural land. This water was then behind the levees along the river and water started to pool. The owners of a private levee then blew their levee to let this pool back into the river. Apparently the river bed at the point of the levee had dropped at that point so that the water level behind the levee was higher than the river level. Thus failing the levee allowed flow back into the river and the level rose.

 

[Caniche]

Unless you believe (conspiracy on) President Obama can impose a total news blackout (conspiracy off) AND MAKE IT WORK! The fact that we can reach this forrum is pretty good evidence he hasn't.

It don't work like thatBut if you're happy with what you are presented with and swallow it then who am I to disabuse you

 

[URob]

I know nothing about a total news blackout, however finding news articles on this issue in mainstream media is almost impossible. This IS one of the very few sites that has any real information. The moderators of this site are conservative. This is not being critical, it's the reason I any many others come back here. It provides balance to the conspiracy sites that release information regardless. Mainstream media in New Zealand has made no mention of the fact that there several nuclear power stations threatened by flood waters and the public is completely unaware of the situation. Quickly scanning Google over the last week for information was fruitless and only leads to dead ends, old info, conspiracy or if your very lucky a link to here.

 

[NUCENG]

It don't work like thatBut if you're happy with what you are presented with and swallow it then who am I to disabuse you

The biggest problem with most conspiracy theories is that in America secrets don't remain secret. Between wikileaks, and Kitty Kelly, the tell all-books and the revisionists, there are always people who want to spill, and there is a ready market for secrets.

My reply stated that there was no evacuation. The original source TV station retracted their story due to misunderstanding that there ARE plans for evacuations but that is true for every nuclear plant. No evacuations have been ordered.

If you want to expand to discussions of conspiracy theories in general, that is off topic and against forum rules.

 

[URob]

Thanks for the link Nuceng, looks like the water levels are beginning to recede. Be nice to get a daily photo of the plant, no webcams there I guess? Here is hoping the rains and the melt have done their worst. They say these buildings are waterproof though I wouldn't like to see water levels go much above ground level. Rivers in flood pack a hell of a wallop (think floating debris, trees etc not to mention boats or barges which may have slipped moorings) once you actually get some water moving past the buildings structural integrity is going to be severely tested.

 

[NUCENG]

Latest Update to the PNO for Ft Calhoun. NRC relaxing on site coverage.

http://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/idmws/DocContent.dll?library=PU_ADAMS^pbntad01&LogonID=d69a84b8d0ce76fc0df1b8d48974347a&id=112080157

 

[NUCENG]

Latest Update to the PNO for Ft Calhoun. NRC relaxing on site coverage.

http://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/idmws/DocContent.dll?library=PU_ADAMS^pbntad01&LogonID=d69a84b8d0ce76fc0df1b8d48974347a&id=112080157

Latest Update: Flood Water level dropping, Site access improved and is allowing more workers back on site.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/15/us-nebraska-nuclear-plant-idUSTRE77E4EX20110815

 

[NUCENG]

NOUE cancelledat Ft Calhoun

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/event-status/event/en.html

http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/08/29/3321225/nebraska-nuclear-plant-ends-flood.html

 

[tasp77]

Aqua berm at plant is being disassembled, and the catwalks over the waters are being dismantled. River is just a few feet above official flood stage now.

One complication, apparently unaddressed at this point; there are some concerns the main channel of the Missouri River is shifting eastward through some cornfields, and connecting with the channel cut off back in the 50s for the wild life refuge, and then rejoining the existing main channel south (downstream) of the plant. Presumably, even in the 'worst case', there would still be a substantial flow past the Ft. Calhoun facility, but knowing now what the final flow rates in each channel would be when the flooding is over would be a big guess.

 

[NUCENG]

NRC ends 7day coverage at Ft Calhoun

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1124/ML112420866.pdf

 

[tasp77]

Water levels have dropped some more, and the main channel of the river, so far, seems to be stable in it's location near the plant.

A lucky break for everyone, the capricious nature of the 'Mighty Mo' could have given us quite a headache.

(a channel shift farther south of the plant seems less likely now too)


Just speculating here, but the apparent maximum discharge rate for the 1st dam upstream of the Ft, Calhoun facility, Gavins Point, is around 500,000 CFS. (the recent flooding topped out at ~160,000) Perhaps a levee or flood wall designed around that rate needs to be considered for construction. (A flow rate of 500,000 CFS, btw, could empty the reservoir in around 10 hours, assuming no incoming flows)

 

[NUCENG]

Follow-up actions at Ft Calhoun. Note: the Confirmatory Action Letter was not yet available on ADAMS.

http://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/...ecovery-begins-at-fort-calhoun-nuclear-plant/

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2011/11-039.iv.pdf

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1122/ML112231755.pdf

 

[tasp77]

Sorry to have to report this, there is definitely a new channel of the Missouri River that has formed due to the recent flooding.

Approximately 1/2 mile south of the highway 30 bridge over the Missouri, at Blair Nebraska, a few miles upstream of the Ft. Calhoun facility, the new channel heads almost due east into a cornfield, coincidentally, the largest one currently in the state of Iowa. The channel within a mile of the Missouri branches into two channels, and has formed an island of a small hill in the field, the 2 branches reconnect on the east side of the small hill, and then head south, and then it has cut through the access road for DeSoto Bend National Wildlife Refuge. The channel then flows through the existing cutoff lake around DeSoto, and exits that lake a couple miles south and rejoins the Missouri River a few miles downstream of the Ft. Calhoun generating station. With the current high levels of the Missouri, there will be sufficient flow for the cooling water needs of the plant after restart. Not sure what this new channel will mean with typical (not this year) low flow rates during the summer, however. Ft. Calhoun might go from way too much water now to maybe not quite enough later.

There was some confusion about this new channel, it was believed to have been forming right at the east end of the highway 30 bridge, but when the water dropped, that incipient flow ceased. Then the flow south of there was noted.

The new channel at the upstream end is roughly 300 feet wide, and is around 45 feet deep. And the current is still eroding it out larger. Just a rough guess on my part, but the flow might be around 15% of the total Missouri flow at that point.

There is a coalition of area farmers that are accumulating materials and equipment for an attempt to plug the new channel when the Missouri drops another 2 feet or so around the end of the month of September.

Let's hope they succeed.

 

[NUCENG]

Follow up. the CAL is here:

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1124/ML112490164.pdf

 

[gmax137]

...

Thanks for the info, tasp77. Do you live nearby Ft Calhoun or Blair? I can't find any info on this new channel using google news.

 

[robinson]

I saw an article in the Omaha press.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20110618/NEWS01/706189893

 

[gmax137]

Thanks, robinson, but that article is datelined
"Published Saturday June 18, 2011"

edit -- I'm not doubting the 'new channel', I'm just looking for more details.

 

[tasp77]

I travel through Blair Nebraska at least weekly, and have been driving by the Ft. Calhoun Generating Facility. I can see the plant from my home.

If you know where to look, when driving over the highway 30 bridge over the Missouri River, the break in the tree line along the 'old' channel is evident. Just east of the bridge, there is a site line through that gap, and the west bank of the 'old' channel (and the ethanol plant) can be seen. Further east on highway 30 (about a mile from the bridge) the channel on the east side of the little hill can be seen running southwards.

The rest of the details of the new channel, cutting the DeSoto road, flow through the old cutoff, and rejoining the Missouri south of the power plant have been noted by the locals involved in the flood fight. Access to various places along the river is difficult, roads and landmarks have been erased, and dangerous scour holes abound.

I am speculating here, as I am not a staffer of the plant or the NRC, but the major concern of lower possible flows past the plant might have to do with the waste heat dumped into the river coolant, and the increased thermal/reduced oxygenation resulting. There are some endangered fish and birds (pallid sturgeon and some kind of plover, as I recall). The Ft. Calhoun plant, as I recall, at 500MW, is the smallest operating (or would be operating if they do the restart) plant in the country. So the problem would be most apparent during low summer flows (assuming we ever get a 'normal' hot dry summer in this area again).

I suppose it seems somewhat odd to the rest of you that a 'problem' like this with a nuclear facility is going to be fixed by a bunch of farmers with tractors and shovels, but for around here, that would be pretty much business as usual. If anything goes horribly wrong, I'll post something about it here.

 

[gmax137]

Thanks tasp77 - I sure hope you didn't think I was doubting you. And as far as farmers go, if you want something done (actually done instead of discussed) then they are the kind of people you need.

 

[tasp77]

The Army Corp of Engineers flat out told Senators Harkin, Grassley, Johanns, and Nelson to not even both asking for help as they don't have any money.

The Missouri was at or above flood stage for 104 days (at Omaha) and the national media coverage was minimal.

Regardless of their skill set, a 300 foot wide channel upwards of 50 feet deep is going to be challenging to fix for a 'bunch of farmers'.

The capricious aspects of the Missouri are fascinating, but the complication of the river doing its' little rant with a nuclear power plant nearby makes it a little more sobering . . .

 

[NUCENG]

The Army Corp of Engineers flat out told Senators Harkin, Grassley, Johanns, and Nelson to not even both asking for help as they don't have any money.

The Missouri was at or above flood stage for 104 days (at Omaha) and the national media coverage was minimal.

Regardless of their skill set, a 300 foot wide channel upwards of 50 feet deep is going to be challenging to fix for a 'bunch of farmers'.

The capricious aspects of the Missouri are fascinating, but the complication of the river doing its' little rant with a nuclear power plant nearby makes it a little more sobering . . .

Fort Calhoun's reconery plan includes reevaluation of the flood design basis. See 4.4 Item 2
http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1122/ML112231755.pdf

Also, NRC has sceduked a trieennial Hat Sink Performance Inspection for November:

http://www.nrc.gov/NRR/OVERSIGHT/ASSESS/LETTERS/fcs_2011q2.pdf

and:

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1008/ML100820347.pdf

Under the CAL closure process NRC will be reviewing issue identification and correction actions by OPPD.

If you feel the activities above are insufficient to address the new channel impact on Fort Calhoun, see:

http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/regulatory/allegations/safety-concern.html.

 

[tasp77]

Precise flow rates for the new channel would be unknowable till the new channel stabilizes. Since meanderings of the lower Missouri River essentially stopped with the completion of the Pick-Sloan dams decades ago, there really isn't a modern knowledge base of what to expect regarding that process. The new channel appears to be longer than the segment of the Missouri River it is bypassing, so the fall per mile is lower than the main channel. An 'Old Timer' in the area asserts this will prevent the main channel of the river from transferring to the new channel, as the river will seek the path of least resistance, and the river also 'prefers' a constant fall per mile also. (I'm sure there are posters here that can explain the hydrodynamics of all that for us if needed).

Flow rates from Gavin's Point Dam are very available; internet, phone, etc., and plant management could also walk out to the river and see if there is any water there, so they would always be able to synchronize their power generation (and heat sink requirements) to the available flow past their facility.

The Army Corp Of Engineers has made it abundantly clear they manage the river strictly for the benefit of upstream recreation, nonexistent downstream barge traffic, and wildlife concerns. Like area residents and farmers, OPPD will adapt.