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Need some good minds to wrap around this

  1. Jul 9, 2004 #1
    Okay. I know this is going to sound wacko, but I want to say that I am skeptical and simply am searching for a logical answer.

    Here is what happened to me in 1987.

    I went to a Spiritual Science Conference of about eleven people. I was there, mainly, because I was skeptical and drove from the east coast to Hot Springs Arkansas because of curiosity.

    The week was spent learning about all kinds of voodoo, The keys of Enoch; crystal power; channelling, and such stuff. We also learned a few interesting things: for instance, it was the first time I learned about abundant, free energy patents that never made it through to production.

    anyway, the culmination of the event was that all of us went into the attic of a Victorian House in which a large Tesla Coil was continually running, along with some music.

    We were to sit in a circle and then close our eyes. No opening of eyes was permitted. The guy in charge was going to "channel." I, of course, opened my eyes, and looked around the room at everyone else who had their eyes closed.

    From the leader of this conference, I saw emerge a ghostlike form. It appeared to emerge from his chest. From my friend, a female, I only saw the hazy grey around her chest. In him, though, it became a form, that of a typical "grey" alien.

    It looked directly at me and I felt negative energy directed toward me. It was just then the ghostlike form retreated into the man's body and the man himself said, Amen and amen, ending the event.

    He would not talk to me about it.

    I know, strange. But I was most concerned about the female who was living in this house, as the caretaker and basically the slave of these two new age celebrities.

    what I learned is that hallucinations can and often do occur if one is near a strong magnetic field. I managed to ask a simple question to Dr. Nick Begich on Coast to Coast AM and he said yes, it was possible to hallucinate near the tesla coil. He told me to look up Persinger on the net.

    I was wondering if any of you can come up with an explanation (other than I am a complete nut because I am not) I have never seen anything like this, nor heard of anyone seeing anything like this.

    Certainly, there are accounts of people seeing aliens, ufos, and ghosts. But this was some kind of mix of alien emerging from a human.

    what bothers me is that very shortly after this happened, this celebrity new age moneymaker renounced everything he had ever written or taught and told everyone to simply go back to the Bible. Something he had encountered had frightened him very badly.

    I have over the years, asked this question to many forums, and have not gotten an answer or an answer that made any logical sense.

    Thank you in advance.
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 9, 2004 #2
    I am no expert

    I would say this is a hallicination or a very vivid dream state, I would forget about it. If you really like this stuff i suggest gooing raving. It all seems very fruadian.
  4. Jul 9, 2004 #3
    Id say to dismiss it as a random hallucination would be foolish, and odviously that doesnt satisfy your intellect otherwise you wouldnt be posting this (i assume).

    I personaly think when your playing around with strong electro-magnetic fields your almost opening a door way for entitys from other dimensions to 'get in' as it were.
    Someone posted a link on this forum a while back (possibly ivan) about a guy conducting experiments with electro-magnetic fields who discovered he could get classic poltergeist activity and manifistations simply by setting up some very simple equipment in a small room.
    Id have a search on this site for that thead as it was a very interesting link, sorry i cant remember the exact name of the thread no doubt it had 'ghosts' in the title or something similar.
    Id also look into the link between ghosts/spirts/entiys whatever you want to call them and areas of strong electro-magnetic activity, there's undeniable correlation between them...
  5. Jul 10, 2004 #4
    Thanks overdose

    You are correct. I really won't be satisfied until I have thoroughly examined this from a scientific point of view.

    I am now thinking that I may have experienced something other than a hallucination, but then again, the unconscious mind surprises me all the time.

    Add in the mix of another person, controlled conditions, and my eyes open, and I still don't know what to think.

    I will perform a search and thank you for your time. :smile:
  6. Jul 10, 2004 #5

    I believe what you saw was an hallucination, but not caused by the EM field of the teslacoil. Rather, it was probably a more simple hypnotically induced hallucination : sitting quietly in that ritualistic atmosphere with the music and sound of the tesla coil no doubt put you, and maybe others, into a trance state. Once there the stuff you saw was created from the material of the subject matter you'd been hearing about the whole time, and your attitudes about the people.

    I agree with username that the content of what you saw may have been a kind of psychological metaphor for how you felt those two people stood in relation to each other.

    Anyone who meditates for very long is liable to fall into this kind of trance. It is actually a common problem in buddhist monasteries, but eventually the students learn how to handle it. I read a story about a novice buddhist who was seen bringing a knife to meditation with him. Asked why, he responded it was to kill the huge spider that always came and sat near him while he was trying to meditate. The master then proved the spider wasn't actually there and that his best course of action was to ignore it if it showed up again and concentrate on his breathing (the explanation for these kinds of hallucinations being, then, that people seem to sometimes start to hold their breath when meditating.

    The main reason I don't think it was the EM field from the tesla coil is that the frequencies that Dr. Persinger has found to work are all under 60 hz. A tesla coil oscillates in the megaherz range, I believe, millions of cycles a second. Much too fast.

    Not that the coil was innocent of a contribution. Because it was running continuously, it must have generated alot of ozone in that room. In addition, the constant sound of it must have been a kind of point of mental fascination, analagous to the stereotype of the watch swinging on a chain.
  7. Jul 10, 2004 #6
    xild may i ask the name of the spiritual leader? id been intersted to know because ive been reading about some very similar experiences lately by a group of people who have published books on various newage themes and are involved in channeling. Their experiences seem to mirror the experiences your talking about here. Just curious to know if there might be a connection. Thanks
  8. Jul 10, 2004 #7
    So there must have been something other than a tesla coil in there because this, couldn't have been a "complete" fabrication of my mind. I have heard, somewhere, that some kinds of frequencies generate more realistic hallucinations and others help the mind generate, a ghostlike quality. At that time, seeing an alien emerge from a human body was beyond what I thought my imagination was capable of. And the young woman was the one I was concerned about. She was living in the house, like some kind of indentured servant to Randall and Vicki Baer, authors of "The Crystal Connection, and other books about quartz crystals."

    The Group then run by Randall and Vicki Baer? I can't remember. But an internet search will help me find it again. There was a name for the company under which they operated the retreats. It's logo included a large wave.

    The groups had been running one after another but after mine, Randall Baer supposedly went into another channelling session, his last. He was doing this, supposedly, to write his new book about some kind of NWO plans. This is all vague to me now, possibly because everything was a secret. But I know he died mysteriously with a copy of his real new book, one in which he retracted all his spiritual science teachings and told people to go back to the Bible. Before he died, they even tried getting their new age followers to listen and believe in stuff Randall had learned about Jesus, and it was a huge flop. Again, I was witness to this stuff for what reason, I will never know. I was simply drawn there after seeing Randall in Main Line Philadelphia, at a conference. when he walked by me, I felt a pull and at that time I was suspect of all kinds of cults, having grown up in a Fundamentalist Baptist church in the north.

    Vicki, we learned at the last retreat, was not married to Randall, and she took the most gorgeous young man out of the group for her husband. Within a month, he was no longer a strong, physical looking male who had ridden his bike from Callifornia, to Arkansas, to be at our retreat, but a version of my father, paunch included. (Vicki was a large woman/ Randall was very thin.) Vicki's new husband's first name was Thomas. Again, from Cally. Everyone had previously thought Randall and Vicki Baer were married. Of course, thus the two sharing the same name.

    So this stunt, above, combined with the complete 360 of what Randall had been teaching, often makes me believe, that after our session in which I saw something not solid, emerge from Randall's chest, toss me an ugly look, then retreat back into him, could have been what startled Randall. he speaks after that time of being possessed. Because Randall wouldn't talk to me about what I had seen (I wasn't supposed to be looking), I have always been suspect, and then of course his mysterious death. And then out. Nothing more about it.

    Again, thank you all for putting your thinking hats on for me. I really appreciate any information you may have about this. If there is another group that has experienced what I have I would really love to connect with them.

    Now I am confused about the Tesla coil. Since the man on Coast to Coast said immediately that a Coil could cause hallucinations, he then directly me to Persinger, whom I hope to get to today on the net. But yes, with the noise of the coil and the chanting music as well, there was sort of an eerie feeling about it, but I was not meditating in any manner, and was highly suspect and in no sense a Randall Baer believer when I saw what I saw.

    A lot of religious web sites now cite what happened to Randall as a warning to get out of the New Age mysteries. Yet they are continuing to sell the old books.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2004
  9. Jul 10, 2004 #8
    Most people believe that hallucinations always "give themselves away", so to speak, by appearing to be less solid to the sences in some way, than real things.

    In fact, that is almost never true about hallucinations. In most cases they pass every test of their reality. If you can see an hallucination, you will almost certainly also be able to touch it, possibly smell it, taste it and hear it.

    You might be very interested to rent the film A Beautiful Mind, which is a true story, which demonstrates that hallucinations seem indistinguishable from real things to the person who is hallucinating. The main character hallucinated a friend for years before a crisis lead him to even suspect the friend might not be real. He then put facts together and noticed that this friend's little niece had been about age 8 for several years, never aging. Both she, and the friend, were the products of his mind.

    In the case of your alien, you have, at least, the fact that, as far as anyone knows, the existence of aliens is unprovable, and also the knowledge that one physically real being cannot enter into another, to prod you to question if this incident was real or hallucinated.

    Unfortunately, you cannot judge it according to how real it looked. Hallucinations can pass that test and yet they are still hallucinations. Hallucinations are different from reality because they are generated from within the brain by neurological processes. The brain is reacting to false data it, itself generated.

    Also: you don't need to have been actively trying to meditate to have been put into a trance by the situation. Breathing the ozone, having your eyes closed, sitting without speaking in a strange group situation, hearing the tesla coil zapping, all these would have put you in a state of hypnosis without any particular mental effort on your part.

    I really do not believe there was anything physically real about what you saw. I do think it was a metaphorical embodyment of how you saw the relationship between those two people. The bad look the alien gave you was a metaphorical embodyment of how you felt that man regarded you. It is just like what your mind does in a dream. Instead of expressing how you think the man feels about you as a verbal thing "That guy sure doesn't like me!", your mind will create a 3-d scenario that represents the same thought.

    In your unconscious mind there was something so disturbing about that man that he reminded you of how you feel about your concept of an alien.

    If you sit down and work through your personal reactions to the concept of an alien, you will probably find a big overlap with your gut emotional reaction to that weird person.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2004
  10. Jul 11, 2004 #9
    I have never heard of aliens inhabiting human beings, nor have I heard of humans masquerading as aliens.

    You are correct as can be there. :approve:

    However, I still need to understand what caused the hallucination to appear so real to me.

    Note: I had my eyes OPEN. not closed. Not that it makes any difference.

    And really, I wasn't expecting much to happen, since not much happened the rest of the week. Nothing unexplainable. Vicki channelled to each of us once, and she was pretty lame in her "take on me."

    It was like going to any two bit psychic who can tell you what any other person in the world can tell you about yourself with some intense observation.

    "you are not a wealthy woman." Well, no biggie, because if I were I wouldn't be wearing shoes from the five and dime rather than Dr. martins.

    thanks again! Please, keep your thinking caps on. I have emailed Dr. michael Persinger. I hope he will write me back and not consider me another loon.
  11. Jul 11, 2004 #10
    im not going to bang on about how i dont hold with zooby's slightly freudian analysis, i personally think these events could be real, but there's no proof either way, me and zoobyshoe wernt there with you so our ideas of what happend are really based on nothing more than our imbeded beliefs about what is and isnt possible.
    Although i will say ive been meditating for the past ten years and to see something that isnt there requires litterly hours apon hours of meditation, even then it would be quite rare for you to have one.

    To be honest with you i doubt you'll find much in the way of hard science that will explain what you saw. Ghosts and aliens? the majority of scientists arnt going to touch that subject with a 10 foot barge pole.
    From a bit of research i did find out about something called the hutchinson effect coined by dr. john hutchinson to describe the strange phenomanon caused by tesla coils.
    heres's some links i found

    btw yeah i do know he's not a real scientist, but thats the best i could find for the time being, there really should be more research into this...
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2004
  12. Jul 12, 2004 #11
    The fact he's not a "real" scientist doesn't bother me. THANK YOU So much!! :smile:
  13. Jul 12, 2004 #12
    no probs :wink:
  14. Jul 12, 2004 #13
    and I also appreciate zoobyshoe's comments, because, it's an aid to keep me grounded about the incident. I don't believe the creature was real. Likely it was fabricated.

    If the "creature" was real, I would think, Hmmm., maybe Randall's trying to bring these things into the world, and using us to host them. That's a great Sci Fi story but I don't believe that.

    I do know Randall himself thought he was "possessed" after he "saw the light" so to speak, the light of God, Jesus, and the Bible, etc.

    But I didn't know that when it happened. My experience happened just before Randall closed shop and moved on to writing a different book, Called "The New Age Nightmare."

    So, still thinking the hallucination was fabricated, I am still doubtful I drummed it up myself. Although I am now contradicting myself since I have previously said the unconscious will surprise me/us every time. I am an artist and work with unconcious material, so I know how powerful and surprising it can be. You create something you think is coming out too cliche and as time goes on that piece of art shows you many different stories about yourself. and it also shows other people stories about themselves.

    So I agree it is quite possible I dreamed this up myself. I just find it strange that the session was cut very short (it was supposed to be an hour and it only lasted maybe 15 minutes); that my hallucination retreated into Randall's close-eyed body a milisecond before Randall ended the session; and the fact that Randall would never discuss it with me.

    This was way back in 1987 and, though I have tried to understand it since, I have also since had other strange symptoms, and for some reason it pops out in my conscious mind from time to time.

    Strange symtpoms since then, the development of Multiple Sclerosis, lesions in my C spine, probably lumbar spine and some in my brain, even in my visual cortex and brain stem.

    Before this diagnosis, I was seeing things while I was awake, without emotion, just random scenes from somewhere in time. I could be watching these with my eyes closed and telling them to the person lying next to me and they would keep going.

    I have also had prophetic and psychic experiences since.

    I admit, these may have been unrelated, I just wonder if these magnetic fields could have caused me to be experiencing some sort of mimic of MS.

    Anyway.... :smile:
  15. Aug 7, 2004 #14
    Hallucinations are often of the "dreaming whilst awake" state. The vision expresses your feelings toward what you are seeing.
    Seems consistent with your feelings re these personalities.
  16. Aug 8, 2004 #15
    kirkmcloren: thanks. succinct.

    I guess I hallucinated this whole thing. I was my first and only hallucination while awake. I still don't understand how I my skeptical self, could have had this happen. The strange things that followed have added to my obsession, which I suppose I am going to have to let go.

    I really didn't find anything from the information given here, though I apperciate it beyond words can express.

    More than the sound of the tesla coil and music putting me into a vulnerable state, I was darned if I was going to keep my eyes closed and experience anything! Then, of course, I did. And what I experienced I still cannot reconcile.

    that I, myself could have hallucinated this is beyond me. I want to know how it was arranged by someone other than myself. :shy:

    I guess that isn't going to be an answer I find in here and y'all seem to be serious about debunking things.

    Thanks again, y'all. I'm re reading this thread to see what I have missed. :confused:
  17. Aug 8, 2004 #16
    There could be something to this notion. Some person there could have "primed" you for this experience at some point, and caused you to forget the "priming" experience.

    The whole thing sounds cult-like in flavor, and there is really no telling what might have been going on, what people's motives were, but self-styled teachers and gurus are often just out for power and influence over other people. That being the case, it is possible there was a post-hypnotic suggestion planted at some point before this session.

    That is just one possibility.

    In general, though, you still seem not to realize that almost all hallucinations are so real-appearing that you can't distinguish them from reality. They don't look "unreal" somehow. You can't count on something like that to tip you off. Content is the main thing that might suggest an experience is an hallucination.

    I had a full blown hallucination, once, during sleep paralysis, and, at the time, the thought I might be hallucinating didn't even enter my head. It was "obviously" real. What tipped me off was the fact that these two guys who had invaded my room just suddenly evaporated, and I could move again, I was no longer paralyzed. While they were there, I could see them, hear them, and feel them (one was holding me down on the bed). There was no indication whatever they weren't real.

    My point is that your mind can cook up super real hallucinations all on its own with no need of outside influence. The fact it was real looking doesn't mean some outside person must have cause it somehow.
  18. Aug 8, 2004 #17
    Hey there
    Really cool stuff I think. Had some experiences myself as (being in Africa) we're pretty close to ancestral interaction and studies. There are many similar experiences all ver the world I'm sure. This is how I see it:

  19. Aug 8, 2004 #18
    I forgot to comment on this. It may be worthwhile to consider that you already had some MS lesions way back at the time of this incident that made you more suseptible to the hypnotic atmosphere of the session. This whole incident may have been the first breakthrough symptom, brought on by the unusual circumstances. Seems like a reasonable thing to bear in mind.
  20. Aug 8, 2004 #19
    So brain lesions, or brain abnormalities of any kind? can predispose one to hallucinations. I have had "auditory illusions" since but these are usually caused by a constant sound in the environment, such as a heater or fan. Hmmm. The brain. It only takes a tiny abnormality and the whole applecart is upset, eh?
  21. Aug 8, 2004 #20
    I've had a similar experience only several things were going on at the same time. I was being sexed up by someone who was at that time, sitting at his house fantasizing about me, and from the corner of my room, where I had a very large clear quartz crystal lying I heard a conversation my friend was having with a coercive person, similar to the type of cult-leader. And, again, I was trying to help him decide if he really wanted to be in this guy's cult.

    After I could move again, I realized what had just happened and I called first my sexual friend and he told me he was just fantasizing about me. I told him I had to go. I hung up and called my other friend and told him verbatim what I head him saying to someone I couldn't hear. He filled me in on the other side of the conversation he was having, and I was somehow hearing and that was that.

    That gave me a lot to think about. I love those types of altered states. But I don't have them much anymore since I am taking a lot of medications, including pain meds, I believe.

    Thanks for reminding me of this and other things. And how real they seem at the time. Perhaps in some alternate way, they have a realness all their own, in the brain, and on some plane of existence. Who knows. It's the experience that counts for something.
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