New Pope

  • Thread starter Clausius2
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  • #126
Jason
I find it interesting that some of the more unpopular positions by the church is being depicted as a polarization of its members rather than a polarization of its members versus the church leadership. For example, the notion that condoms do not respect the sanctity of life is so far out of step with most of laity that, there would be no polarization if the Vatican dropped that ludicrous position. Here is a clear situation where there is no threat to any life except the life of the persons are at risk of contracting AIDS. Millions of people will die of AIDS that can be prevented by condom use. Yet, the Vatican maintains the position that condoms do not respect the sanctity of life. What about the lives of the millions who will die because of the Church's policy?

CNN Story
 
  • #127
Clausius2
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Moses said:
.....The Jews and Muslims of Iberia and Europe in general in the medival ages.

Don't say false things, moses, there wasn't any crime against Muslim of Iberia. They were rejected and defeated after a previous invasion. If they had kept themselves in their homes nothing would have happened.
 
  • #128
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Clausius2 said:
Don't say false things, moses, there wasn't any crime against Muslim of Iberia. They were rejected and defeated after a previous invasion. If they had kept themselves in their homes nothing would have happened.

So by you not talking about Jews, and just negating the issue i said about muslims. I guess you ADMIT that they were crimes against Jews dont by the catholic church in Iberia. Actually in history it is the same reasons why Morocco haev significant numbers of jews, they are the ones who escaped from the masacres in Iberia and run to the peaceful muslim institutes in Morocco...

There was not any crime? lol!?!?!? Visigoths in the middle east are the muslims of Iberia people who excaped from killing. the religous courts done by the Catholic church were sweeping any non-catholic [yeah, sometimes even protestants] from Iberia surface, its a fact in history that i guess not even two honest people will disagree about.

Muslims entered Iberia by INVITATION from members in the goverment, for stopping piracy and curroption of the royality...Those muslims as what i see are not selfish; invade others to steal thier oil or sth ...
 
  • #129
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I wont celebrate the masacars people, the native people of Iberia from thier lands. Being kicked out just becuase you change your religion is not fair.

Regardless if i have a religion or not. And regardless what is my religion IF i have one. The fact i am saying should NOT be affected by me as a person. The facts are the facts as the truth is the truth.

Spain is an exanpded northern Iberain kingdoms who indavded the muslims visigoths land [yeah, they were some people from arabic origin living among them, who anscetors helps in liberating the land from curropted goverments]

You did offense me. However, me being a man who respect The prophet Jesus i will not offense back. May Universe-Master forgive you for what you know not.
 
  • #130
Clausius2
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Moses said:
The facts are the facts as the truth is the truth....

Sure, but you are not on the side of the truth. On the other hand you keep on saying untrue sentences like this one:

Moses said:
Spain is an exanpded northern Iberain kingdoms who indavded the muslims visigoths land [yeah, they were some people from arabic origin living among them, who anscetors helps in liberating the land from curropted goverments]

Who invaded whom? I repeat maybe you're not a muslim, but sure you have been educated in that ambient.

Moses said:
You did offense me. However, me being a man who respect The prophet Jesus i will not offense back. May Universe-Master forgive you for what you know not.

I will learn you some spanish words: ME LA PELA LO QUE DIGAS O PIENSES. I don't need you to forgive me.
 
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  • #131
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First: I said "May the Universe-Master forgive" and not "May i [Moses] forgive..]

Second: Its well-known fact that the northern kingdoms of Leon and Castille invaded the Visigoth muslim part of Iberia, by the excuse of the re-conquesta to make it christian again.

That reminded me when spanish spread christianity in South America with the cover of colonization, to use religion as a tool in politics..for not god reasons.

Third: No one orders me, say leave or say anything you want, i will take it as an opinion, even its intended by you what you wish. Again, no one orders me :biggrin:

Last: Humans are humans, not animals, regardless if they are muslims or living on moroco or from the south. At least me, Jesus and Mohammad agree on this point, and i think we all the three are right.
 
  • #132
arildno
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Just a historical note:

This won't abate either tempers I think, but I believe it is of some importance to clarify what we know of Tariq's invasion:

In 710, Roderic lead a rebellion instigated by the clergy against the Visigoth king Wittica, and claimed the throne after Wittica's death.
Infuriated by this action, Count Julian and Wittica's sons sent an appeal to the Moslem governor in northern Africa, Muzza.
Muzza sent Tariq off with an invading army, and due to treacherous behaviour of Count Julian, Roderic lost the battle at Jeres de la Frontera (25/26. July 711), and drowned in his flight in the river Guadalete.

Tariq didn't stop here, however, and speedily conquered large chunks of present day Spain.
That made him a target of Muzza's envy, who sent his general into jail, where he was until Muzza's death in 713.


It seems to me that the Arab invasion must have been planned well in advance of the intrigues of the Visigoth court leading up to the murder of Wittica.
The "appeal", whatever historical veracity it carries, should only be regarded as a flimsy, legalistic cover for an invasion that would have happened sooner or later.
Neither of the side's main participants were particularly praiseworthy, in my humble opinion.
 
  • #133
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And let me continue the Story Arildno, a part that i am not sure if you know about:

That army did not obey the goverment in damascus just to do the mission they have done. Instead they planned to go and attack France as well. And they have been stopped at Tours. A result of which when the Caliphate goverment known of, ordered an immediate retreat and going to damascus for court of tragnresson against other. Many generals were punished.

Still, they had a very valid excuse when they entered. I had some document speaking about the reasons of conquering the other [chunks]. Which to be honest i almost foget if they were completly valid or not.

I do agree the army in Moroco were waiting a chance to stop the problem of piracy and other issue regarding the Iberian kingdoms. In politics, waiting untill a valid moral chance aint bad. The bad is attacking without an excuse, a valid one. Which i believe the re-conquesta was...

[btw, if there was WMD in Iraq, its invasion COULD me a bit more justified, still the war crimes by any means are not justified...]

At last, I do appreciate your input arildno :smile:

Edit: just re-spell your username
 
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  • #134
arildno
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"Still, they had a very valid excuse when they entered. I had some document speaking about the reasons of conquering the other [chunks]. Which to be honest i almost foget if they were completly valid or not."

Hmm..can't say I agree to that. However, very few at that time were particularly concerned with what we call "human rights"; I don't think Roderic or Tariq were much worse than their fellow-men; Count Julian, though, seems extraordinarily shifty, and Muzza seems rather sinister, IMO.
 
  • #135
Clausius2
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Moses said:
Second: Its well-known fact that the northern kingdoms of Leon and Castille invaded the Visigoth muslim part of Iberia, by the excuse of the re-conquesta to make it christian again.

This paragraph invalidates ALL what you have said. Your words take along a false impressed character of victimism. "BY THE EXCUSE????", what excuse??? It was not an excuse!!!!!!!!! It was justice!!!!!!!. It was not an invasion!!!!!!! It was a reconquering!!!!!!!!. How can one invade the territory of a guy who has invaded it previously?????????.

I am very pride of every christian soldier who recovered our country and enhanced which is nowadays Spain, and I am happy to see how the defeated change the history and the reality to feel victims, when originally they were the offenders.

Your behavior does not collaborate to integrate muslim community in Spain.
 
  • #136
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Since discussion is no longer on topic, thread closed.
 

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