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New Video fro Iraq

  1. Feb 12, 2006 #1
    This video is in the news so I expect that people knew about it.

    It shows the abuse of Iraqi teenagers by British soldiers in Basra in 2004. Here is the link from BBC:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4705482.stm


    From BBC:
    Sunday, 12 February 2006,

    Here is the link of video:

    http://astream.com/links/notw/together_300.asx
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2006
  2. jcsd
  3. Feb 12, 2006 #2

    Hurkyl

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    Law of Truly Large Numbers

    What was the point of this? Someone alledgedly did something wrong, and they're being investigated. Why is it worth starting a thread about it?
     
  4. Feb 12, 2006 #3
    I apologize because I did not explain the previous post. I think that people already knew about it.

    The person who speaks could be a Dutch journalist.

    I found this on the top of my posts:

    Warn: (73%)

    Is that means I will be banned or what? :eek: :cry:
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2006
  5. Feb 12, 2006 #4

    Evo

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    We're implementing new guidelines for P&WA, because of the nature of politics and the fact it can be very emotional, bans may be for as little as 3 days, just to get the member to re-think things. So, they're more like "mini-vacations".

    I'm a sucker for apologies too, ask Art. :biggrin: If I issue a warning and you nicely convince me you had no bad intentions, or that I misunderstood, I am likely to remove it. If the behavior is repeated, the warning can be re-applied and doubled. The purpose of warnings is to let members know what is and is not acceptable. It is not for the purpose of banning a member. The only members that get permanently banned are the ones that repeatedly refuse to adhere to the guidelines.
     
  6. Feb 12, 2006 #5
    I am really depressed!! :grumpy:

    Two days ago, they gave me the last warning in Islamic discussion forum because I defended Denmark!

    Today they gave me a warning in Islamic – Palestinian (Hamas) discussion forum because I tried to convince them that the Palestinian Christian as the greatest heroes!!

    And I came to PF to get the warning!!

    So nobody accept me :cry:
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2006
  7. Feb 12, 2006 #6
    I saw an extract from the video on TV news earlier tonight. It is really very difficult to watch - the soldiers really lay into these teenagers, and some of the language was censored on the news.

    I think one of the Political Science implications of this behaviour (if the video is confirmed to be bona fide) is perhaps how brutalising the experience of occupation may be to soldiers - so that they lose control and start acting contrary to the codes of conduct stipulated by the army.

    Another interesting aspect of this video is that while the British forces have been held up as behaving in a more restrained, professional manner than other forces occupying Iraq, this video seems to provide further evidence that this is not the case.
     
  8. Feb 12, 2006 #7

    Evo

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    Aww, you still have hope here. Actually, being located in Palestine, your viewpoint is valued. It appears you are willing to abide by the rules, and that is what matters.
     
  9. Feb 12, 2006 #8
    The Israeli soldiers had beaten me in the same manner when I was 15 years old. You can not imagine how “the hell” my feelings were.

    In first time, they found me in the farm out of my town, while they had already asked people to stay at their houses (curfew). 3 soldiers started to beat me … but other kind soldier rejected to join them and asked them to leave me after 4 horrible hours. I never forget my lovely dog in that time. He rejected to leave me alone.

    The second time, 2 soldiers belong to the ‘’Death unit’’, they followed a guy to kill him, but he succeeded to run away. So they retuned back to my house and they started to hit me on my face by the M19.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2006
  10. Feb 12, 2006 #9

    Gokul43201

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    Bilal : You do not get warnings for holding and expressing views or opinions. All views and opinions that you share, as your point of view, will be accepted as such, so long as it meets some basic requirements (it does not promote hate or violence against some large, generalized populace, etc.)

    You get warnings for how you present these views. Rhetoric and unsubstantiated or unreferenced jabs are not considered good form.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2006
  11. Feb 12, 2006 #10

    Hurkyl

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    Let me refer you as well to the Law of Truly Large Numbers. We should expect events like this to happen, even when there does not exist any sort of underlying problem.
     
  12. Feb 12, 2006 #11
    Bilal, I am so sorry to read this, that this happened to you. Unfortunately, I witnessed similar events in South Africa - after one has lived such a reality, it is impossible to just shut it out when it happens again (and again and, sickeningly, again).

    Some of my university classmates were actually tortured when they were detained in apartheid South Africa (they were detained merely for handing out pamphlets! They were called 'terrorists' because they handed out these pamphlets which, by the way, were information pamphlets about an historical massacre that had occurred in the 1960s). Anyway, these classmates held a meeting informing the rest of us of exactly what happened (how they were tortured) when they were finally released (months later). This opened my eyes to what sort of society I was living in, and it changed my life completely. And these were second-hand experiences - I cannot imagine how your personal experiences must have changed you.
     
  13. Feb 12, 2006 #12

    Astronuc

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    When I began writing this post I wrote: "I am with Hurkyl on this. What exactly is the point of the thread." Now with a subsequent post by Bilal, I now understand the significance. Like Alexandra, I sorry for what you experienced Bilal! :frown: It certainly is not civilized behavior!

    Yes, the video is showing soldiers beating some Iraqis, and the fact that the soldiers drag them out of sight of others and then beat them seems to indicate that the soldiers are aware that what they are doing is wrong and likely a violation of rules of engagement. Basically it is wrong.

    I have seen such behavior before, even by police officers against protesters in the US.

    It seems the soldiers are retaliating against those they hold responsible for some action, such as throwing stones at the soldiers (?) which seemed to be the case in the very beginning of the video. I am not saying that this is justification for the soldiers' behavior.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2006
  14. Feb 12, 2006 #13

    Gokul43201

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    The same argument holds for discussing, say a terrorist act involving the hijacking and crashing of civilian aircraft into highly populated buildings in large metropolitan cities, killing thousands of people in the process.
     
  15. Feb 12, 2006 #14
    But we are talking about human beings here, Hurkyl, not numbers. These actions have a lifelong effect on the people concerned (both the ones beaten and those doing the beating): one cannot deal with people as if they were statistical irrelevancies. What have these soldiers taught those teenagers, do you think? These are important issues worthy of discussion, in my opinion.
     
  16. Feb 12, 2006 #15

    Hurkyl

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    Yes we are. Lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of human beings.

    It may be worthwhile to talk about this incident in isolation, but you tried to do significantly more: you made sweeping generalizations about the entirety of the British force in Iraq. And when commenting on that scale, a single example is statistically irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2006
  17. Feb 12, 2006 #16
    I disagree with your interpretation. Alexandra said that the video provides evidence that the British forces should not be held up as behaving in a more restrained, professional manner than other forces occupying Iraq. This is not a sweeping generalization of anything, it means what it says and nothing more. This video is obviously evidence against this previous claim, which is all I've heard him say.
     
  18. Feb 12, 2006 #17

    Hurkyl

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    Okay, I'll grant that technicality. But it's still akin to taking a single step, and then claiming you've made progress in a marathon. While it may be evidence towards a conclusion, on its own it is a uselessly small piece of evidence.
     
  19. Feb 12, 2006 #18

    Art

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    It's all true o:) <blows kiss at Evo :biggrin: >
     
  20. Feb 12, 2006 #19

    Art

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    All the major news channels in England are leading with this story. This alone indicates it is a subject worth discussing. Nobody here has made the claim or come to the conclusion that this is indicative of the approach to policing by the entire British army and so you are arguing against a strawman.
     
  21. Feb 12, 2006 #20
    You know what? I have a plan. We should build lots and lots and lots and lots of nuclear weapons. Then, when one of them is "accidentally" launched and kills a couple of million people, not only can we blame it on the Law of Truly Large Numbers, but it'll be statistically insignificant. Somebody tell Bush, quick!
     
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