New Video fro Iraq

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  • #26
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I was watching NBC nightly news, they just showed the video clip. They had a retired general from the UK army call these soldiers, 'morons.'
 
  • #27
Hurkyl
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cyrusabdollahi said:
Because it came off sounding like that.
To him, and apparently to you. I still don't understand it, though.

Hurkyl said:
Yes we are. Lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of human beings.
...
sweeping generalizations about the entirety of the British force in Iraq. And when commenting on that scale, a single example is statistically irrelevant.
Astronuc said:
Unless of course, one or someone whom one loves, e.g. child, spouse, sibling, parent, is the victim of such violence. Then it is all too relevant.
But, of course, a single family unit is nowhere near the scale of the entirety of the British forces that are occupying Iraq. Did you even read what I wrote? :grumpy:

edward said:
So how many single examples does it take to make something statistically relevant? It is not as if this were the only incident of this nature in Iraq, there have been dozens.
It would depend on the test being performed, and the level of confidence desired. I don't know.
 
  • #28
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Law of Truly Large Numbers

What was the point of this? Someone alledgedly did something wrong, and they're being investigated. Why is it worth starting a thread about it?

It sounds almost as if you think I'm using the Law of Large Numbers to somehow justify what has happened, though I don't understand why you would think that.

It sounds like that, because thats exactly what you just did. You put out the law of large numbers with no context or reason. If you do not want further confusion, do not post abiguously in the future. You fail to see the ramifications of this incident, which goes back to the last thread on no respect for Islam.
 
  • #29
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It sounds like that, because thats exactly what you just did.
True, except for the fact that I did not. Because of the law of large numbers, it is not remarkable that an event like this has occurred. That is a far cry from asserting that these people have done no wrong because of the law of large numbers. (In fact, that assertion seems so strange to me, I actually had trouble typing it. :grumpy:)

You fail to see the ramifications of this incident, which goes back to the last thread on no respect for Islam.
There should not be ramifications. The only reason that this has been made into anything is because people who want to believe something are all too happy to leap to conclusions given insufficient evidence.

If "incidents of such barbarity are not isolated but symptomatic of the military occupation of Iraq", then that is a problem. But one example is not proof of such a bold claim.

This is not "disrespect for Islam" -- it's basic numeracy. :grumpy:

For fun, I did a quick back of the envelope calculation -- at a rate of 4.0 assaults per 1000 persons per year in England, average of 9,000 British soldiers per year, over three years, and assuming that British soldiers treat Iraqis comparably to how Englishmen treat Englishmen, we would expect 108 assaults to have occurred. (Also, 36 robberies, and 5 rapes, and 540 burglaries)


So unless you (or someone else) gives me reason to believe otherwise, I'm going to continue believing that this event has absolutely no significance, except for the fact people are going to blow it way out of proportion.
 
  • #30
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What do you mean by ridicule? And why did you change soldiers with people? Soldiers are not civilians, they are trained military professionals who are expected to uptain a level of professionalism in times of war and crisis. I meant what I said, and I said what I meant.

EDIT: now where did that post go? ARG! Im sure it will pop back up.
 
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  • #31
Gokul43201
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cyrusabdollahi said:
What do you mean by ridicule? And why did you change soldiers with people? Soldiers are not civilians, they are trained military professionals who are expected to uptain a level of professionalism in times of war and crisis. I mean what I said, and I said what I meant.
I'm sorry, I deleted my old post - it showed up weirdly to me, and it wouldn't let me edit it. Apparently, I was the only one having trouble viewing it.

Never mind what I was saying.
 
  • #32
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cyrusabdollahi said:
I’m sorry, I don't buy that, not for one second. If all the other soldiers did not behave in such a manner, there is no reason to tolerate or excuse their behavior of these few. The other soldiers are under the same amount of stress, but were able to act in a professional manner. If they can't behave as professional soldiers, they should never have volunteered to be a professional soldier. These few disgraced the many, and as a result will make life more miserable for their comrads as the Iraqi's will step up retaliations. If you watch the video, this was a bunch of guys deciding to teach those kids a lesson. That did not look to be stress induced, the guy in the video was cheering them on, laughing. They are no better than the people they fight when they act like that, appalling.
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That is obviously your opinion which you have a right to have .but different people act differently to stress and some cope much better than others and just because there professional soldiers doesn’t mean there not human, subject to a limit ,everyone has a limit. Soldier’s limits are generally higher than you or me however they still have a limit. Pass that limit and even the sanest person can crack up and do things that they would never do under normal circumstances.

A few years back my best friend told me his mother had died, and I couldn’t stop smiling. i didn’t want to smile i knew his mum and was saddened and shocked at what he was telling me but for some reason I couldn’t stop smiling. He knew it was a nervous reaction or something because he knew me however smile I did. Our brains are amazing things but unfortunately they control us rather us control them.

These few disgraced the many, and as a result will make life more miserable for their comrads

No the newspapers have made life more miserable for their comrades. they should have held back with the story and just told those who needed to be told.
 
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  • #33
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I still don't buy that argument. Its not just my opinion, its the opinion of a retired UK army general who called the soldiers 'morons' on the news today. Who cares how much stress they were under, I don't. That does not excuse them from acting like animals. You did not see other soldiers acting like that, and they were in the same place, at the same time, under the same conditions. They should be thrown in jail for 5-10 years.

A few years back my best friend told me his mother had died, and I couldn’t stop smiling. i didn’t want to smile i knew his mum and was saddened and shocked at what he was telling me but for some reason I couldn’t stop smiling. He knew it was a nervous reaction or something because he knew me however smile I did. Our brains are amazing things but unfortunately they control us rather us control them.

So you and a group of your friends beat him while cursing and laughing at him and filmed it for your personal enjoyment?

No the newspapers have made life more miserable for their comrades. they should have held back with the story and just told those who needed to be told.

The newspapers made the situation worse, but don't be so quick to assume that the Iraqi's did not catch wind of what happened to those boys long before the story broke out. Those boys were not killed which means they came back home with smashed faces, and I promise you word of this spread around town and people heard about the incident.
 
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  • #34
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cyrusabdollahi said:
So you and a group of your friends beat him while cursing and laughing at him and filmed it for your personal enjoyment?
.
Your evil:biggrin:
 
  • #36
Hurkyl
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cyrusabdollahi said:
Who cares how much stress they were under, I don't. That does not excuse them from acting like animals. You did not see other soldiers acting like that, and they were in the same place, at the same time, under the same conditions. They should be thrown in jail for 5-10 years.
I agree (with a reservation) -- you can't simply give the soldiers blanket amnesty for their actions under the pretense of unbearable stress.

The reservation is that we can't just assume they should be thrown in jail either. :tongue2: They deserve due process just like any other Brit.

And while unlikely, that might mean that they are let off due to a legitimate stress-related condition. But the point is that it will have been determined by an investigative process, rather than automatically assumed.
 
  • #37
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Not the famous colonel bob stewart, its always him. By the way he retired 11 years ago and these days everything he says has to be taken with a pinch of salt. he's into politics now as well as public speaking which he gets paid very well :)for and in general says whatever is necessary to get himself some publicity. As for the video I've seen worse on US reality TV police shows. As for the audio from the video WELLLL it could be real but i bet someones adding a few choice words and sounds after it was shot just to increase it selling potential.
 
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  • #38
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But the point is that it will have been determined by an investigative process, rather than automatically assumed.

Investigate what, you have seen the beating with your own eyes. They should go to trial, it should be an open and shut case, and they should get 5-10 years in prison, every last one of them.

The reservation is that we can't just assume they should be thrown in jail either.

Why the double standard again? Do you think there was a trial for the 'suspects' sent to GIPMO without trial or reason, and were held as long as the US wants? (I'm making a point here, yes they should have a trial just as the people in GIPMO should.)


As for the audio from the video WELLLL it could be real but i bet someones adding a few choice words and sounds after it was shot just to increase it selling potential.

Until that is ruled by an expert, it is what was said by the camera man.
 
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  • #39
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Hurkyl said:
I agree (with a reservation) -- you can't simply give the soldiers blanket amnesty for their actions under the pretense of unbearable stress.

The reservation is that we can't just assume they should be thrown in jail either. :tongue2: They deserve due process just like any other Brit.

And while unlikely, that might mean that they are let off due to a legitimate stress-related condition. But the point is that it will have been determined by an investigative process, rather than automatically assumed.

Funny you said "Just like any other brit", becouse Due process is something the US an Brit forces have never gived to the iraki people.
 
  • #40
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Hurkyl said:
Funny you said "Just like any other brit", becouse Due process is something the US an Brit forces have never gived to the iraki people.
Why is it funny? We were talking about a Brit. The only legal systems that could be of relevance would be the British legal system and the Iraqi legal system, and it's clear that it's the British one that is to handle the case.

But, of course, I don't think that's what you wanted to talk about, despite it being what you quoted. :rolleyes: Well, would you care to (explicitly) state a point and make an argument? I'm especially keen to see how you argue that the coalition forces are serving as part of Iraq's judicial system.
 
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  • #41
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Investigate what, you have seen the beating with your own eyes. They should go to trial, it should be an open and shut case, and they should get 5-10 years in prison, every last one of them.

So the fact that the other half of the video has just surfaced showing these troops enduring a sustained attack by mortars, grenades and rocks by a group of people which contained those captured means nothing.

I wonder why the newspaper in question edited the footage removing all that preceded the footage shown to the world and only showed the so called unprovoked attack .Maybe because it gave reason for their apparent loss of cool. i believe this so called unprovoked attack was filmed around the same time that another group of british soldiers where attacked in the same manner, on that occasion the british soldiers were killed. why do people suddenly snap and lose control i wonder.
 
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  • #42
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So the fact that the other half of the video has just surfaced showing these troops enduring a sustained attack by mortars, grenades and rocks by a group of people which contained those captured means nothing.

Nope, not one bit. They are not the law of the land. They can detain agressors, but they can't beat the hell out of whoever they want whenever they want, especially when they are beating up on kids.

Maybe because it gave reason for their apparent loss of cool.

Again, so what? That does not excuse them from beating those kids.
 
  • #43
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Again, so what? That does not excuse them from beating those kids.

Its called aggravating and mitigating factors and its down to a military tribunal to decide whether there are any in this case which could have caused these soldiers to temporally act in the way which they did.
I say temporally because there is no evidence so far that these soldiers have ever acted in this way before or since.
Also we have no idea how serious these so called beatings were, we have no idea what injuries their were to these young men if any. Watching it on the telly proves nothing in respect of how hard or maliciously any of the blows were delivered or if there was any actual intent to harm seriously or not .

We should leave the judgements to the experts, instead of judging people without all the facts, people who have got to do what is at the moment the most demanding and stressful life threatening job in the world.

Innocent until proven guilty.
 
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  • #44
poststruct
cyrusabdollahi said:
Nope, not one bit. They are not the law of the land. They can detain agressors, but they can't beat the hell out of whoever they want whenever they want, especially when they are beating up on kids.

Again, so what? That does not excuse them from beating those kids.

If your condemnation applies to all those who beat up suspects, then I could understand your concerns. But I dont see you condemning the Islamists when they beat up the seculars in Basra, and which has been reported over and over again. Or when the thugs plant bombs on the British troops, who are mandated by the UN to preserve the peace in Basra.

If the concern is to uphold the rule of law and justice, then the largest violator of the law is Sadr and his Islamic thugs in Basra who have killed, tortured and maimed countless number of people. Applying outrage selectively, just demonstrates that your outrage is not directed at the injustices, but rather directed at one of the sides.
 
  • #45
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poststruct said:
If your condemnation applies to all those who beat up suspects, then I could understand your concerns. But I dont see you condemning the Islamists when they beat up the seculars in Basra, and which has been reported over and over again. Or when the thugs plant bombs on the British troops, who are mandated by the UN to preserve the peace in Basra.

..............because no one was talking about Islamists beating up seculars in Basra, were they?

Perhaps you should stay on topic, as the rest of us in here have. Who cares about Sadr and his Islamic thugs. That is not the issue here. You know, try reading a thread before posting in it.

poststruct said:
Applying outrage selectively, just demonstrates that your outrage is not directed at the injustices, but rather directed at one of the sides.

Obviously, you can't pay attention to the topic in here, nor to what I was talking about. Don't come in here and write slander about me. You do that again and I will report you.
 
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  • #46
poststruct
So what is your interpretation of the topic of this thread?

That some thugs are throwing rocks, shooting, and perhaps RPGing the lawful authorities in Basra, only to be captured? And those being beaten are obviously adults resisting arrest. This is very clear from the video. And that the British soldier who was threatened with his life a minute ago and who has captured the offender, will then have to release him to the Sadr run police force, so the perpetrator will be immediately released without charge, only to come back and threaten the life of the British soldier again? That the British army in Basra is not executing perfect justice under warlike conditions, where there is no rule of law and the police force is infilitrated by the Islamist goons?

Or is the topic about one sided anti-democratic selective outrage propaganda meted out by some individuals who masquerade that as a fight for justice and rule of law?

The topic as fars as I am concerned has already been set out on post #2 in this thread:
Hurkyl said:
Law of Truly Large Numbers

What was the point of this? Someone alledgedly did something wrong, and they're being investigated. Why is it worth starting a thread about it?
 
  • #47
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So what is your interpretation of the topic of this thread?

We are discussing the issues of what the british soldiers did in this video, as the title of the thread explicitly states.

And that the British soldier who was threatened with his life a minute ago and who has captured the offender, will then have to release him to the Sadr run police force, so the perpetrator will be immediately released without charge, only to come back and threaten the life of the British soldier again?

So how exactly does that excuse his actions?

Or is the topic about one sided anti-democratic selective outrage propaganda meted out by some individuals who masquerade that as a fight for justice and rule of law?

What did I tell you about posting slander. You are going to get a warning for that my friend. I have no more patience to put up with people accusing me for words that THEY put in MY mouth. :uhh: You keep putting words in my mouth like that and you wont be here much longer.
 
  • #48
poststruct
cyrusabdollahi said:
We are discussing the issues of what the british soldiers did in this video, as the title of the thread explicitly states.

I am sorry, but you have gotten the topic wrong. Somebody posted mud propaganda, and didnt explain why. The #2 poster set the tone for this thread by pointing out the meta-message inherent in the video.

So how exactly does that excuse his actions?

Now this is the better of your questions. However, there is nothing ingenious about demanding perfect justice under warlike conditions. You have to look at this action in the larger context. Once that violent stone throwing gun wielding protester, which by any standard would be summarily sentenced to a year behind bars, leaves the gates of the compound, he is scott-free and there will be no charges. We both know that there is not much of a rule of law in Basra, and there is even less of a process of justice. The police force is essentially in the hands of Sadr and Fadhila. They have been beating up seculars, assassinating reporters, intimidating dissenters, and silencing oponents. They have been encouraging these stonethrowers and gun runners to attack the British troops.

Under these conditions, to complain about lack of perfect justice, is akin to complaining that your scotch does not have enough ice on a sinking Titanic. Yes, I suppose the staff on the Titanic continue to be responsible to deliver adequate ice under all conditions. But anyone observing the complainant will have to question their sincerety.

The British troop was acting in a manner that was in accordance with prevailing practice or common law in Basra. If the Islamists want to complain about that, then maybe they should first hold up the rule of law themselves, act in a civil manner, and stop assassinating journalists and beating up seculars. So yes in a bizarre and remote context, where for example if the British troops were faced with a non-violent protest under civil conditions, then I could see your complaint to be somewhat valid. But under the prevailing cultural and legal conditions of Basra, to demand perfect justice, where the British are totally understaffed and outnumbered, is rather disingenious.

What did I tell you about posting slander. You are going to get a warning for that my friend. I have no more patience to put up with people accusing me for words that THEY put in MY mouth. :uhh: You keep putting words in my mouth like that and you wont be here much longer.

Note: I do not need friends like you. Your attempt to bully me and silence me into submission is hilarious. You sound like those Mohammedans who jump up and down everytime somebody brings up a fact about Prophet Mohammad, such as him holding slaves. Dont worry, you can't intimidate me and I suggest that you act civilly around here and allow people to voice their opinion. I have the right to voice my opinion about your message and method. That is exactly what I am doing when questioning an insincere post. If you find that to be slander, then boy, you aint know nothin 'bout the law or about civil discourse.

In fact, I should be the one putting in a complaint about you on your attempts to silence people from voicing their opinion about insincerety on this forum. Now you go jump up and down, and try to excuse the so-called "infalliable" Prophet and his stable of slaves, and try to silence me my dear sir.
 
  • #49
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Go rant some where else. If you want to make an argument, then present one in a descent fashion. You came in here and blasted away at me making wild acusations of things I never said. I am not going to defend myself against someone who continues to put words in my mouth. You are all over the map with your argument. Are you talking about the troops, the cartoon, me 'trying to slience you', the Islamics beating eachother? Pick one topic, (i.e the topic of this thread), and stick to it. From this point forth I will no longer dignify your posts with an answer.

Consider yourself reported.
 
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  • #50
loseyourname
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Don't restart this thread. I'll go through and delete the bad posts and then reopen it later, or maybe someone else will.
 

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