News for entertainment

CRGreathouse
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Re: "News" for entertainment

And while there is propaganda from the right containing ad hominem attacks, the attack on motives used by the left, communists/socialists/Democrats as in my example, is not only consistent and persistent. as advocated by Marx, it's their bread and butter.
Not that I doubt you, but would you give a source? I'm not too familiar with Marx; all I've read is his (joint) Communist Manifesto, and that not recently.
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

And while there is propaganda from the right containing ad hominem attacks, the attack on motives used by the left, communists/socialists/Democrats as in my example, is not only consistent and persistent, as advocated by Marx, it's their bread and butter.
Not that I doubt you, but would you give a source? I'm not too familiar with Marx; all I've read is his (joint) Communist Manifesto, and that not recently.
I'll assume you mean a source for Marx's advocating "consistent and persistent" propaganda? If so, it's a recurring theme in many of his writings, but since you mention http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch04.htm", I'll quote it:

"But they never cease, for a single instant, to instill into the working class the clearest possible recognition of the hostile antagonism between bourgeoisie and proletariat..."

I suggest reading the whole thing for context, since it's only a few pages, but I would note that Marx refers to communists in the third party throughout The Communist Manifesto, since it was intended as a manifesto of communists in general, not of himself personally. That quote was referring specifically to communists in Germany in the mid 1800s.

If you're referring to attacks on the motives of those of us who disagree, I think you can pretty much pick a Marxist writing, by Marx or his past or current followers, at random and find plenty. But it's basically all throughout http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm".
 
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OmCheeto
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Re: "News" for entertainment

Sure, it's typical election-cycle babble, but the difference between left and right is a difference in substance, while the difference between Democrats and communists/socialists is just a change in the exact words, no difference in substance.

And while there is propaganda from the right containing ad hominem attacks, the attack on motives used by the left, communists/socialists/Democrats as in my example, is not only consistent and persistent, as advocated by Marx, it's their bread and butter.

Where would the Democratic Party be if they pursued their same agenda, but refrained from ever using such Marxist propaganda to attack the motives of their opponents, but instead tried to rely completely on debating the issues on their merits alone?

They wouldn't just suffer election losses like the recent one, they would disappear completely. Their constituency exists primarily as a result of their Marxist ad hominem attacks, and they know it very well.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and make what will probably be interpreted as a personal attack. I suggest you stop watching the 23 hours of Fox which is not news, and get some sleep.
 
CRGreathouse
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Re: "News" for entertainment

If you're referring to attacks on the motives of those of us who disagree, I think you can pretty much pick a Marxist writing, by Marx or his past or current followers, at random and find plenty. But it's basically all throughout http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm".
Yes I was -- sorry for not being clear.

I've seen many examples of this (and I think that's what you mean when you talk about choosing randomly). But is this espoused as a general principle, as for (e.g.) Scientology?
 
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Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make what will probably be interpreted as a personal attack. I suggest you stop watching the 23 hours of Fox which is not news, and get some sleep.
I don't interpret it as a personal attack, but your post seems to have a false assumption. It would be impossible for me to watch Fox News any less, since I don't even have cable or satellite TV service. And while I sometimes watch local Fox network shows, I don't watch their news shows, either.

That's why I'm not really involved in the debates here about specific Fox News pundits: I don't even know who most of them are.

But none of my post had anything to do with Fox News, so I don't see the relevance, anyway.
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

I've seen many examples of this (and I think that's what you mean when you talk about choosing randomly). But is this espoused as a general principle, as for (e.g.) Scientology?
No, it's not a general principle of Marxist ideology itself, it's merely a political strategy. They know full well that "servitude to the rich" isn't the only possible motive that anyone could have to disagree with them.

If you notice in The Communist Manifesto, Marx never even acknowledges the point of view of libertarians in general, he instead addresses what he called "the bourgeois objections to Communism.", ie the objections of the rich and big business, and attacked their motives. His (false) implication was that there was no other reason for opposition.
 
CRGreathouse
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Re: "News" for entertainment

If you notice in The Communist Manifesto, Marx never even acknowledges the point of view of libertarians in general, he instead addresses what he called "the bourgeois objections to Communism.", ie the objections of the rich and big business, and attacked their motives. His (false) implication was that there was no other reason for opposition.
I did notice that. Actually that bothered me less than his Freud-like tendency to make bold, unsupported assertions with no evidence.
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

I did notice that. Actually that bothered me less than his Freud-like tendency to make bold, unsupported assertions with no evidence.
Yeah, that's even more prevalent in Das Kapital, and common to his writings in general.

And those same bold, unsupported assumptions are common on this forum, often used as underlying assumptions instead of explicit claims, as if assuming instead of stating a claim to be true negates the necessity of supporting it.
 
Gokul43201
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Re: "News" for entertainment

And those same bold, unsupported assumptions are common on this forum, often used as underlying assumptions instead of explicit claims, as if assuming instead of stating a claim to be true negates the necessity of supporting it.
I can't speak for the claims by Marx (having not read them), but it is my experience here that bold, unsupported claims are made by folks on all different sides of the political spectrum, and is hardly limited to those that promote Marx-like ideas. I don't discount the possibility that I may have engaged in this myself, though I do make a concerted effort not to.
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

I can't speak for the claims by Marx (having not read them), but it is my experience here that bold, unsupported claims are made by folks on all different sides of the political spectrum, and is hardly limited to those that promote Marx-like ideas. I don't discount the possibility that I may have engaged in this myself, though I do make a concerted effort not to.
Ditto for me. None of us are perfect. :redface:
 
CRGreathouse
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Re: "News" for entertainment

And those same bold, unsupported assumptions are common on this forum, often used as underlying assumptions instead of explicit claims, as if assuming instead of stating a claim to be true negates the necessity of supporting it.
I find that this forum is excellent in terms of providing sourcing. I frequently ask people on PWA for information and they are almost always quite helpful. I learn a lot here.
 
OmCheeto
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Re: "News" for entertainment

I don't interpret it as a personal attack, but your post seems to have a false assumption. It would be impossible for me to watch Fox News any less, since I don't even have cable or satellite TV service. And while I sometimes watch local Fox network shows, I don't watch their news shows, either.

That's why I'm not really involved in the debates here about specific Fox News pundits: I don't even know who most of them are.

But none of my post had anything to do with Fox News, so I don't see the relevance, anyway.
Skreeeeeeech!

Wait. You don't watch news? And you are commenting in the "News" for entertainment thread?

Rewind.

Ah! You're here solely to call me a delusional Marxist, because Democrats cant simply be called democrats, they have to be called Marxists because simply calling us Democrats isn't descriptive enough. Great! Thanks!

Hmmm... Anyone know where I can get a list of attributes for sociopaths and libertarians? I need to do a side by side comparison. Maybe if they have one thing in common, I can legitimately call you a sociopath(based on your; "if one toe fits in the shoe, then it's your shoe" logic) without getting banned for being rude.
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

Wait. You don't watch news? And you are commenting in the "News" for entertainment thread?
I didn't say that. I said I didn't watch Fox News.
Ah! You're here solely to call me a delusional Marxist, because Democrats cant simply be called democrats, they have to be called Marxists because simply calling us Democrats isn't descriptive enough. Great! Thanks!
No, it's because I'm not talking about only self-described Democrats, I'm referring to an ideology/worldview. And I would gladly refer to that ideology a Democratic if there were no objections from people who are not a member of the party. I used the word "Marxist" because it's a generic description of an ideology, not a reference to any particular political party or group.

And I have asked repeatedly for an unobjectionable word that would describe that ideology/worldview, that (accurately) distinguishes it from mine (libertarian). Can you provide a description of the economic ideology/worldview of Democrats that distinguishes it from libertarianism, that nobody will object to?
Hmmm... Anyone know where I can get a list of attributes for sociopaths and libertarians? I need to do a side by side comparison. Maybe if they have one thing in common, I can legitimately call you a sociopath(based on your; "if one toe fits in the shoe, then it's your shoe" logic) without getting banned for being rude.
That's a faulty analogy. First because I was using the word "Marxist" to refer to an ideology, not a person.

Second, some of my beliefs could be called "Marxist", because the shoe fits. For example, if you referred to my view of women in the workforce as Marxist, I would say yes, that's right. Because I have no objections to women in the workforce, and have no reason to object that view being labeled as Marxist, because it is. I have no need to object to any true statement.

Third, the ideology I used the word "Marxist" to describe is not secondary, or incidental, like his approval of women in the workforce: It's what he was known for. He is known as the father of socialism and communism because they are based on Marxist ideology.

Fourth, the word "Marxist" is not an insult. Many people refer to themselves and their ideology as Marxist. How many people refer to themselves as "sociopaths"?

Fifth, Marxist ideology is the most favorable option possible to refer to the ideology of Democrats, in light of their agenda. It assumes compassion and noble motives. It's the exact opposite of an insult as an underlying reason for their agenda.

That's the exact opposite approach that Democrats take when describing their political opponents. They typically use the worst possible option: that bad motives and lack of compassion is the reason.
 
CRGreathouse
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Re: "News" for entertainment

That's the exact opposite approach that Democrats take when describing their political opponents. They typically use the worst possible option: that bad motives and lack of compassion is the reason.
Of course this is by no means limited to Democrats; Republicans do the same. And really, so do LibDems, Labour, and the Torries...
 
OmCheeto
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Re: "News" for entertainment

I didn't say that. I said I didn't watch Fox News.
You said you don't have cable or satellite TV. What do you watch your news on? A shoebox?
No, it's because I'm not talking about only self-described Democrats, I'm referring to an ideology/worldview. And I would gladly refer to that ideology a Democratic if there were no objections from people who are not a member of the party. I used the word "Marxist" because it's a generic description of an ideology, not a reference to any particular political party or group.

And I have asked repeatedly for an unobjectionable word that would describe that ideology/worldview, that (accurately) distinguishes it from mine (libertarian). Can you provide a description of the economic ideology/worldview of Democrats that distinguishes it from libertarianism, that nobody will object to?
Democrats?
That's a faulty analogy. First because I was using the word "Marxist" to refer to an ideology, not a person.

Second, some of my beliefs could be called "Marxist", because the shoe fits. For example, if you referred to my view of women in the workforce as Marxist, I would say yes, that's right. Because I have no objections to women in the workforce, and have no reason to object that view being labeled as Marxist, because it is. I have no need to object to any true statement.

Third, the ideology I used the word "Marxist" to describe is not secondary, or incidental, like his approval of women in the workforce: It's what he was known for. He is known as the father of socialism and communism because they are based on Marxist ideology.

Fourth, the word "Marxist" is not an insult. Many people refer to themselves and their ideology as Marxist. How many people refer to themselves as "sociopaths"?

Fifth, Marxist ideology is the most favorable option possible to refer to the ideology of Democrats, in light of their agenda. It assumes compassion and noble motives. It's the exact opposite of an insult as an underlying reason for their agenda.

That's the exact opposite approach that Democrats take when describing their political opponents. They typically use the worst possible option: that bad motives and lack of compassion is the reason.
So now you are a Marxist Libertarian?

But none of my post had anything to do with Fox News, so I don't see the relevance, anyway.
And I don't see the relevance of anything you've said above regarding the thread topic, nor even a point to your argument, other than to rename a shoe a glove.
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

You said you don't have cable or satellite TV. What do you watch your news on? A shoebox?
Yep. Since a shoebox is the only alternative to cable and satellite TV. :uhh:
Democrats?
Do you think no one would object to that? Why do you think I stopped using the word Democrat for that purpose? Most of the posts I referred to were by people who specifically claim not to be Democrats. "Democrat" is a party affiliation, not a belief system/ideology/worldview.
So now you are a Marxist Libertarian?
What? How do you get that? I only said my view on women in the workplace was Marxist, not my main economic ideology. Why on earth is this so difficult to comprehend?
And I don't see the relevance of anything you've said above regarding the thread topic, nor even a point to your argument, other than to rename a shoe a glove.
It's relevant to the objections to my use of the word "Marxist". And my point is obvious: I was not using the word "Marxist" as an insult, and I'm unaware of any way to describe the ideology/worldview of Democrats that no one will object to. I wonder why that is?
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

That's the exact opposite approach that Democrats take when describing their political opponents. They typically use the worst possible option: that bad motives and lack of compassion is the reason.
Of course this is by no means limited to Democrats; Republicans do the same. And really, so do LibDems, Labour, and the Torries...
Sure, but for Democrats, it's their bread and butter. How often do you hear a Democrat refer to people who disagree with them on economic issues without doing that? Ad hominem attacks on peoples' motives seems to make up the bulk of their message on economic issues. And those attacks on their opponents' motives are almost entirely responsible for them being elected to office. And they obviously know it.
 
turbo
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Re: "News" for entertainment

Sure, but for Democrats, it's their bread and butter. How often do you hear a Democrat refer to people who disagree with them on economic issues without doing that? Ad hominem attacks on peoples' motives seems to make up the bulk of their message on economic issues. And those attacks on their opponents' motives are almost entirely responsible for them being elected to office. And they obviously know it.
Can you possibly substantiate any of that rubbish? "Ad hominem" "economonic issues" and "obviously know it". Somehow, you can sling about claims and political slurs with no repercussions. Why? What indemnifies you from the expectation of decent intercourse on this board? Can you be decent? Can you discuss political disagreements without casting aspersions on others?
 
OmCheeto
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Re: "News" for entertainment

Over the last few years, a number of discussions have brought the following to light. While it is no secret that many or most alleged news agencies have discovered that entertainment is far more profitable than good reporting, what I didn't realize is that, based on my own interactions with people across the political spectrum, the motivations for watching the news have changed as well.

As I have stated many times, I am a PBS man.
I've had PBS on all day. I love pledge week.

But did you also notice how the vernacular of "Enterdnews"* kind of creeps into peoples vocabularies in a very annoying way, almost to the point of obsession?

* 'd' as kind of the German pronunciation kind of cross-lingual pun kind of 'd'. Not to be confused over how to pronounce 'w' or 'v' in German, which Andre and I will one day decide with fists, blood, and I'm sure, lots of spitting.........
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

Can you possibly substantiate any of that rubbish? "Ad hominem" "economonic issues" and "obviously know it". Somehow, you can sling about claims and political slurs with no repercussions. Why? What indemnifies you from the expectation of decent intercourse on this board? Can you be decent? Can you discuss political disagreements without casting aspersions on others?
Are you freakin' kidding with this? That's just bizarre. You can throw around hateful, insulting, and derogatory phrases like "slave to moneyed interests" and "servitude to the wealthy" and even dare to mention "decent discourse" and "casting aspersions"? And want me to "substantiate" the claim that Democrats use ad hominem attacks on the motives of Republicans routinely? Hell no! Why should I repeatedly jump through hoops to substantiate the plainly obvious, just so you can demand substantiation for the same obvious facts over and over, while you routinely make absurd, preposterous hateful assertions with no attempt at substantiation?

Then you yourself refer to social security and other countries' health care programs as "socialist", then object to me using the word "Marxist" to describe the economic ideology of Democrats? Are you as confused about what the words "socialist" and "Marxist" mean as much as you are about "conservative" and "neo-con"?

You have yet to explain how my use of the word "Marxist" is indecent in any way, much less a "political slur", while your posts are consistently hateful and insulting and derogatory in a self-evident and obvious way.

Seriously, dude, this is bizarre. :confused::confused::confused:
 
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turbo
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Re: "News" for entertainment

Are you freakin' kidding with this? That's just bizarre. You can throw around hateful, insulting, and derogatory phrases like "slave to moneyed interests" and "servitude to the wealthy" and even dare to mention "decent discourse" and "casting aspersions"?

Then you yourself refer to social security and other countries' health care programs as "socialist", then object to me using the word "Marxist" to describe the economic ideology of Democrats? Are you as confused about what the words "socialist" and "Marxist" mean as much as you are about "conservative" and "neo-con"?

You have yet to explain how my use of the word "Marxist" is indecent in any way, much less a "political slur", while your posts are consistently hateful and insulting and derogatory in a self-evident and obvious way.

Seriously, dude, this is bizarre. :confused::confused::confused:
It would be really nice if someone who is a mentor recognized how twisted it is to allow you to keep calling people Marxist with no justification apart from your Rush Limbaugh world view. Seriously, we don't all live there. You might want to watch a bit of the news that is carried by actual news sources. If you want to investigate "Hateful and insulting and derogatory statements, you might start a bit closer to home. People who are progressives, moderates, or liberals, seem to be a little bit less inclined to sling crap on others. There is room to discuss differences of opinion, but when name-calling and nastiness intrude, it's harder for people to keep cool and be nice. Do you get that?
 
OmCheeto
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Re: "News" for entertainment

You have yet to explain how my use of the word "Marxist" is indecent in any way, much less a "political slur", while your posts are consistently hateful and insulting and derogatory in a self-evident and obvious way.
I believe it is the use of the term "Socialist", which most people equate with the term "Marxist", at least here in the States, by the members of the entertainment channel that neither you nor I do not watch, that has re-popularized the term, in an "indecent" way. It really doesn't matter that you and I understand that Marxist and Socialist are simply political terms. But it does matter to the 34% of the people who would vote for Palin over Obama, that "Marxist" is a ******* term. So when you use it as a careless joke, we take it as you so jokingly intended it, as an insult.

BTW, where are you from? 6 years on the forum, and still hiding your whereabouts? Where's that Assange guy when you need him? :devil:
 
Al68
Re: "News" for entertainment

It would be really nice if someone who is a mentor recognized how twisted it is to allow you to keep calling people Marxist with no justification apart from your Rush Limbaugh world view. Seriously, we don't all live there. You might want to watch a bit of the news that is carried by actual news sources. If you want to investigate "Hateful and insulting and derogatory statements, you might start a bit closer to home. People who are progressives, moderates, or liberals, seem to be a little bit less inclined to sling crap on others. There is room to discuss differences of opinion, but when name-calling and nastiness intrude, it's harder for people to keep cool and be nice. Do you get that?
It seems to me that a good way to objectively determine if a political label is derogatory is whether or not political groups use the label to describe themselves. That's common for the word "Marxist". How common is it for "slave to the wealthy"?

Instead of repeatedly just asserting that the word "Marxist" is derogatory, why not just explain why you object to the word "Marxist"? I don't mind using the word "socialist" instead, like you have, but you are not the only other member here, and others object to the word "socialist" with reasons that are lame, but far better than the lack of a reason you have provided.

I have no problem refraining from using the word "Marxist", if there is any logical reason for anyone to construe it as a "political slur". But at this point, I am far more interested about the reason for the objection than about any future use of the word.
 
Evo
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Re: "News" for entertainment

Marxist is going to be nixed as a slur, tea bagger, neocon, also no longer allowed.

So, err on the safe side for now and stop using terms that can be considered derogatory.
 
Evo
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Re: "News" for entertainment

Comparing someone to Rush Limbaugh is a slur.

Maybe.

I need to get out an official list. I will accept submissions for consideration.
 

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