# Newton schmewton

1. Mar 6, 2006

### ubavontuba

Lots of scientists have been researching inertial effects in an attempt to develop the "reactionless space drive" (sometimes called propellantless or self-contained space drives). Has anyone made any headway?

I sometimes find articles pertaining to this that will state things like, "Professor so and so of such and such university has devised a theoretical means of self-contained propulsion." These articles will often state that the results are extremely limited (less than the width of an atom in one case) or the concept is based on the highly theoretical reseach of so and so (meaning it's probably garbage to begin with, I suppose).

Are these concepts usually developed in an attempt to verify Newtonian Mechanics with the expectation of failure, or do scientists really sense that there must be a way around Newton's laws?

What's the latest news?

Last edited: Mar 6, 2006
2. Mar 6, 2006

### mathlete

There is a way around Newton's Laws... it's called Quantum Mechanics ;)

3. Mar 6, 2006

### ubavontuba

Sure, but can you use it to drive a spaceship?

4. Mar 6, 2006

### Redhat

Another way would be Special and General Relativity.

Yes. I'm not sure if QM could do it but relativity tells us that there is equivalence between mass and energy.

Mr. Newton taught us that Force = d/dt(mass x velocity) which becomes the familiar F = m x dv/dt when mass is constant but becomes F = (v x dm/dt) + (m x dv/dt) when mass changes. This, as I'm sure you know is the basic principle behind rocket propulsion.

Since a photon's energy is E = (h x freq.) and since E = mc^2, the effective mass of a photon is m = (h x freq.)/(c^2) .

So, if one blasts enough photons of extremely high frequency out of the back of a spaceship, the ship will move forward since this action transfers the photons' mass from the spaceship to the outside meaning that dm/dt is not zero and is directed in the backward direction. This creates a net force that would push the ship forward.

Whether this is a "propellant less" spaceship or not would depend on whether one considers the energy used to produce the photons as a propellant.

5. Mar 6, 2006

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus
Yes, that's probably it !
There isn't much stuff around that has technological applications and that isn't well described by "conventional" physics, you know. And to get away with non-conservation of momentum, you'd be in trouble with classical physics, with relativity, and with quantum mechanics...

6. Mar 7, 2006

### ubavontuba

Redhat,

That's still a rocket. It's called a "photon rocket."

Vanesch,

Tell me more about the conservation of momentum in this regard. It's my understanding that in an isolated system any acceleration of the center of mass, off of its center of gravity, would break this conservation. Is this correct?

What about in the case where the position changes (like in quantum tunneling) but the relative momentum remains the same? Is this still a conservation violation?

7. Mar 7, 2006

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus
Yes. In Newtonian mechanics (point masses and forces and all that), the conservation of momentum is introduced by postulate, which is the action=reaction postulate. So in elementary Newtonian mechanics, it is put in by hand ; and what you put in by hand, you can take it away, too. You could formulate a force law violating this postulate (for instance, green balls excert a force of 3N on red balls according to the line connecting them, but red balls don't excert a force on green balls). However, the re-formulation of Newtonian physics in Lagrangian terms (the variational approach) includes this action=reaction part in its formalism, from the moment that there is spatial translation invariance (that means, that shifting the entire system over a translation vector T, doesn't change any of the internal physics). You cannot take it out "by hand" anymore once you use this formulation. And this variational principle is the building block of about all of modern physics ; so we understand now the conservation of momentum as a consequence of the translational invariance of physics.
Now, as with everything, this could, one day, turn out to be wrong. But then about all we know of physics today is wrong. I'd need to see SERIOUS indications for momentum not to be conserved for me to start to take such a drive seriously - and as far as I know, never ever such an indication has been found. Again, one day, this could prove to be wrong. Just as the following assertion could prove to be wrong one day: "when you step out of the window on the 25th floor, you fall down". Maybe one could postulate that this may be true on all days of the year, but not on the 8th of March...a day when you can safely step out of the window of the 25th floor and you'll be floating there, not falling... wouldn't it be great if this were true ? Why don't we look deeper in this possibility ?

So, apart from this reserve, all of current physics says that momentum has to be conserved, and we think we know the underlying reason for that, which is the symmetry that physics is invariant under space translations.

In quantum theory, there's no violation of conservation of momentum. The reason is that the overall Hamiltonian is commuting with the momentum operator, which is nothing else but the generator for space translations: if a is a translation vector and P is the momentum operator, then the translation operator in quantum theory is given by T(a) = exp(i a P), where you see the explicit relationship of the symmetry mentioned before.

8. Mar 7, 2006

### ubavontuba

Isn't this the day that the window washer's scaffolding just happens to be positioned outside my 25th floor window for a scheduled washing?

So you're basically stating that if anyone actually succeeds with the development of a device/experiment that can internally shift it's center of mass off of its center of gravity, then all the physics we think we know falls to pieces?

Does it seem then that physics (since Newton) might be founded on a single principle that may or may not be true? Other than by experiment, has anyone tried to verify this by trying to formulate physics in other terms? What happens?

9. Mar 8, 2006

### Redhat

Hi ubavontuba,

From your original post, I was not aware of the requirement for a rocket-less propulsion system (Sorry, I've not read the articles you referenced. Are they available on the web? -- they sound interesting).

The "center of gravity" and center of mass of an object only coincide when the gravitational field is perfectly uniform. So, in the real universe where nothing is really perfect, such coincidence doesn’t actually exist.

To "shift" the center of gravity (even more) from the center of mass, all one needs to do is increase the non-uniformity of the gravitational field acting on the object of mass in question.

A dramatic example would be the “spaghettification” an object experiences as it falls into a black hole. As the object gets closer to the black hole, the gravitational field becomes less uniform. Simply put, the gravity at the “bottom” of the falling object is greater than the gravity at the “top” of the object. As such, the object experiences forces pulling it apart from top to bottom and squeezing it together from side to side.

Even though the object will eventually “fall to pieces”, the physics we know thankfully does not. ;)

Redhat

10. Mar 8, 2006

### ubavontuba

Well, you can do a Google Scholar. Do one on "inertia" for starters. You can get more specific to propellantless space drive concepts if you use "propellantless propulsion" -tether -"solar sail." Also, substitute out "propellantless" for keywords: antigravity, reactionless-propulsion, reactionless-space-drive, self-contained-propuslsion and inertial-propulsion

There are a number of interesting papers to peruse.

Also, do a general Google of the same keywords and you'll find lots of articles and silliness. Adding the keyword "article" cuts out some of the clutter.

11. Mar 9, 2006

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus
yes. (if I rewrite your phrase simpler: that can accelerate its center of mass internally, in an inertial frame)

Simple as that.

Last edited: Mar 9, 2006
12. Mar 9, 2006

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus

"other than by experiment" :rofl:

Of course. I can do it by the force of thought. I can clash together entire galaxies that way (but not by experiment, just in my phantasy...)

13. Mar 9, 2006

### ubavontuba

Vanesch,

That's funny... not. I was referring to reformulating the basis for the standard model on different mathematical principles. Do all roads lead to the current paradigm?

In other words, if these researchers that are trying to develop asymmetry in isolated systems have any hope of success, musn't there be an alternative to our standard model that correctly predicts what is currently observed, plus predicts the effects they desire?

I know this is obviously too vague a notion (without observable experimental results) to do more than perform some cursory explorations. I'm just wondering if anyone has done this, and if so, what interesting (or not) results might they be finding (interesting as in "too bizarre to be true" would also be interesting). String theory approaches this level of exploration, doesn't it?

14. Mar 9, 2006

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus
No, of course not. That was exactly my point. You can dream up all you want, you can postulate all you want. If you do not need to have agreement with experiment, there's a lot more "wiggle room" to think up new stuff of course. As I pointed out, in Newton's original formulation of mechanics (which is usually taught as introductory course to mechanics), you do not need action = reaction. It's postulated, but you can leave it out. Then you already have your theory which potentially works as you like, and in which there is no conservation of momentum.
As I said, you could have a toy universe consisting of red and green balls, red balls pulling on green balls, and green balls not pulling on red balls.
Define the force law:

F_green = G_greenred xM_red x M_green / r_green-red^2 x 1_green-red

(force excerted on a green ball, in presence of a red ball).

F_red = 0

(force excerted on a red ball)

We also define that red balls do not exert forces on red balls, and green balls do not excert forces on green balls.

All Newton's postulates (except for action = reaction) are respected this way.

It's a funny system to study. For instance, study what happens to a halter made of a red ball and a green ball, helt together by a strong steel bar of 1 meter length.

Or study what happens if you have a dispersed set of green and red balls, and what happens to the center of gravity.

Question: it there conservation of angular momentum ? Is there conservation of energy ?

So here we have a theory, which is perfectly self-consistent, and in which there's no conservation of momentum. So clearly things do not HAVE to be that way. You can think up such theories, it is not difficult. The point is that they do not correspond to what's observed. I wouldn't know how to make it into a quantum theory, for instance. What's the point ?

15. Mar 9, 2006

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus

I think one of us is mis-reading ubavontuba's post. I don't think he's talking about the difference between how gravity works upon an extended object, versus the centre of mass. He's more concerned with the possibility of a "propulsion-less" space drive or something, which would require non-conservation of momentum.
I'm trying to explain that conservation of momentum resides somewhere deeply in our understanding of physics, and that if momentum turned out not to be conserved, it would effectively shatter about all we know about physics to pieces. Now, I know that in GR, on large scales, things like "conservation of momentum and energy" become delicate issues, mainly because global quantities in GR are difficult to define (see for instance http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/energy_gr.html). So I restrict myself here to conservation of momentum locally, in flat enough space (which is in any case the situation of a potential space drive).
Newton's theory, without action=reaction, is the last time we could accept violation of conservation of momentum. After that, we got Lagrangian and Hamiltonian formulations (which have it build into them if there is translation symmetry) of classical mechanics. And if you give up on that, you have no leg to stand on to do quantum theory. So most of 20th century physics would indeed fall to pieces if momentum were observed not to be conserved.

16. Mar 9, 2006

### Redhat

vanesch,

I think I now understand his original post (thanks in large part to some of your explanations). It was this statement to which I was responding.

As an engineer, I take that as a challenge.

17. Mar 9, 2006

### ubavontuba

Vanesch,

Thanks. Your letters cleared it up for me quite well. I now only have one question:

Why are these researchers so eagerly seeking asymmetry then? What's the point?

18. Mar 9, 2006

### ubavontuba

I understand where you're coming from. I'm glad that you now understand what I was asking.

Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
19. Mar 10, 2006

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus
Making fuzz ? Craving for attention ? Too much time on their hands ? I don't know.

20. Mar 10, 2006

### Redhat

How 'bout this?

I was thinking about this subject today while taking a shower and came up with this wild invention.

It seems to allow for space travel without relying on Newton's law of conservation of momentum. Instead it relies on special and general relativity and ironically is basically a "photon rocket" turned inside out. This ship also emits light but as “exhaust” and not as a “propellant”. As such, I'm unsure as to its overall efficiency compared to Newtonian propulsion systems.

I call it the Photon Sphere Drive. Though the technology does not now (nor may ever) exist, the principles are fairly elementary. Thus it’s not a matter of physics but a matter of engineering.

(I wish I could include a picture – is that possible on this forum?)

“Reaction-less Space Drive using a Photon Sphere”

The Engine: The Photon Sphere

The photon sphere is a device used to create primordial black holes for the purpose of space travel. Its radius (which relates to its power) might be on the order of thousands of meters if not more.

Its inner surface is technically quite amazing. It consists of an array of extremely high frequency lasers directed toward the sphere’s center. Each laser is capable of creating extremely high frequency gamma ray photons. Once firing the photons, the lasers shrink drastically in area so that the photon sphere becomes virtually transparent. After some period of time the lasers return to their normal size and fire again. The laser array almost completely covers the entire inner surface of the sphere and is extremely dense. In fact, each laser’s maximum diameter is only the wavelength of the gamma ray photons.

Each laser fires at a precise time (based on the speed of light, the sphere's speed and the laser's position) so that all photons reach the center of the sphere (in phase and at the same moment in time) which makes the energy density great enough at that point to curve space-time into a primordial black hole (which “absorbs” all consequent photons from the lasers). After some short period of time the primordial black hole evaporates and its Hawking radiation escapes into space through the holes in the photon sphere created when the photon sphere becomes transparent.

The Spaceship:

Attached to the part of the inner surface of the photon sphere not covered by the laser array is a long flexible and stretchable arm that at its end is a pod containing the control deck, crew’s quarters and power supply for the lasers. The vast majority of the mass of the ship is here and its location is slightly removed from the center of the photon sphere. Its’ position relative to the center of the photon sphere can be changed by the flexible arm connecting it to the sphere.

The principle of operation:

The mass of the primordial black hole (at the center of the sphere) and the center of mass of the ship (essentially the control pod) fall toward each other. But before the pod enters the primordial black hole’s event horizon and disaster ensues, the primordial black hole evaporates into space through the openings in the photon sphere when in it’s transparent mode. The cycle continues and the spaceship continues to accelerate for as long as the lasers can be powered.

The ship is steered, stopped and speeded up by moving the pod relative to the center of the photon sphere with the flexible arm.

Maybe to increase efficiency, the leading surface area (“front”) of the photon sphere would not turn transparent thereby utilizing the energy of the Hawking radiation to add to the ship’s kinetic energy. But this gets Newtonian so ....

Redhat

21. Mar 10, 2006

### vanesch

Staff Emeritus
I think you've made a complicated photon motor. The question is if the center of gravity of the entire system (including the Hawking radiation) is moving. I'd bet not. In fact, you've sent a lot of radiation to infinity to move your space ship, and you can consider this radiation as the "exhaust" of your spaceship...

22. Mar 10, 2006

### ubavontuba

It seems to me that by the laws of thermodynamics this couldn't be nearly as efficient as simply aiming all of those lasers rearward, to create a simple photon rocket. This is becasue anytime you change energy froms you lose energy to radiant heat. Therefore you want to apply the energy to the task at hand in the fewest steps possible.

I think you might be thinking that a micro-blackhole (MBH) might somehow exert a large gravitational force on the mass of the ship. This isn't true. The gravitational field of the MBH is no greater than the gravity of all the photons it is made of. It's just that it has a very, very, ve-e-e-e-ry tiny event horizon. It won't pull the ship so much, but rather the ship will simply gravitationally attract it (it's mass would be virtually nothing, as oppsosed to the mass of the ship).

Also from a Mechanics point of view, the energy/photon mass you move from one part of the ship to the other to create the MBH will be exactly equal and opposite in force to any pull achieved by the MBH. There will be no net motion.

23. Mar 10, 2006

### soupbone

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ParticleAndNuclear/photon_mass.html

24. Mar 11, 2006

### ubavontuba

That link you posted describes photons pretty well, defining the characteristic known as "relativistic mass." However, it's a pretty well accepted supposition that they have no rest mass. Technically, all we can really say is that any mass they might have can only be defined to the limits of our experiments. There is an active debate as to whether they are truly massless or not (similar to the old nuetrino mass debate). Some speculate that there may yet be a defined minimum mass.

25. Mar 11, 2006

### Redhat

Well, I thought about that too and resolved it this way. The Hawking radiation is originating from the black hole’s event horizon and not from the ship itself so an overall change in momentum of the system would result from that difference.

An analogy:
In a "vast" region of space there exit two massive objects. One is a capsule containing a crew. The other is a small black hole radiating away.
The capsule and the black hole accelerate toward each other but before they meet, the black hole totally evaporates. It seems logical that after that event, the capsule will still have the momentum it gained from the encounter with the black hole.

The photon motor as you call it (not a bad name I must say) just cycles the above process only in a much smaller region of space.

You’re right here. This is not a very efficient means of propulsion compared to a photon rocket.
The whole concept depends on efficiencies in engineering the universe may never see, but from a purely physical standpoint it should be possible.

Just using basic physics, one can “construct” such a ship and calculate how much its momentum changes as a function of the forces acting on it over time. Now if I didn’t screw up the math or some constants I predict the following: (this makes the assumption on Hawking radiation previously mentioned and also that the ship is “transparent” enough so that the Hawking radiation imparts no momentum to it.)

A photon sphere having a radius of around 227m being able to produce gamma rays of 10e21Hz is connected to the ship such that its center of mass is 10m from the center of the of the primordial black hole (PBH) at the time of its creation. Such a photon sphere would create a PBH with a mass of 6.75e5 Kg. (not very big but as such, will evaporate in about 25.8s).

Assume the ship is 10 times this mass and so the ship and PBH will accelerate together. (BTW all free falling objects accelerate toward each other in a g field, not just the lightest one toward the heavier one – even the sun moves very slightly because of the earth’s gravitational effect on it).

Anyway, about 26 seconds after the PBH is created, the ship will have “consumed” the gravitational energy of the PBH (and after making a couple of simplifying assumptions as to rate of change of the distance between centers of mass and the rate at which the black hole evaporates) one might expect an incredible change in momentum of: 82e-3 Kg m/s. !! Okay so its not a reason to start looking for venture capital.

Having said all that, I think there is another reason that it wouldn’t work and that comes from the fact that the energy required to due this resides on the ship. To produce the above example’s result requires converting 10% of the ship’s mass into energy and then completely converting it back into mass. But that step transfers mass from the ship to a point in front of it which (according to Newton) should produce a force pushing the ship backwards. So perhaps the net effect is indeed zero just as vanesch says.

But the guys down at SciFi Engineering have been working on this problem and have come up with a modification to the outside of the photon sphere. If instead of powering the photon sphere from the ship, the sphere will absorb the required energy from the universe itself – a “solar, neutrino, cosmic ray, gravitational wave, etc..” collector of sorts having incredible efficiency. The ship would then convert radiant energy of the universe into mass which would attract the ship’s mass and provide it with power to move.

Although the efficiency of that compared to a simple solar sail is even questionable.

Bottom line: “inertial” drives (at least using gravity) seem inherently much less efficient than drives based on momentum conservation. However, they do not seem to violate physical laws.