Nicholas Berg murdered by Americans?

[The_Professional]

I never saw the original footage and I find it difficult to believe that the beheading video was staged by the CIA or somebody in the military. But this link tries to prove otherwise.

Just another conspiracy theory? a supposed fact?
http://marc.perkel.com/archives/000233.html

If you have a different opinion then you tell me why they have the same plastic furniture - the same walls - the same floorboard color - and the same orange jump suit. You tell me why these terrorists are fat white guys wearing bullet proof vests. You tell me why they speak bad Arabic. You tell me why they yell like Americans when they kill Berg. I suppose the terrorist picked up those chairs at the local WalMart!

Berg has no idea what it about to happen. He looks comfortable - perhaps too comfortable. I think they probably told him that they wanted him to pretend to be a hostage in order to get out of prison. Berg knew he was back at Abu Ghraib prison and that his "captors" were Americans - and that he was playing a role. Notice the orange prison garb in the picture.

Furthermore - for those of you who haven't made the leap to the conclusion I came to - that Americans dressed as terrorists did it - you at least have to admit that serious questions are raised that need to be answered. And I'm hoping you all will help me get the questions asked.

# No Blood - I only watched it once but it was a blur to me. There may be a reason that there is blood (has to be blood) but we don't see it. The reality is - Berg really is dead - and his head really was cut off. So - whatever doesn't make sense about the blood is just generally confusing.

# The Gold Ring I'm told this is against Islamic law. And - that contributes to the argument. I personally don't find it persuasive by itself, but it contributes a little.

# The Tape was Edited - Yes - there are wo time lines on the tape. What does that mean? Does it mean it was faked? Again - Nick Berg is really dead. So - I believe he was actually killed by the guys on the tape. But - what it does indicate is that the terrorists have what seems to be two cameras and digitial video editing equipment. Other tapes from bin Laden are not as high tech. Generally a physical copy is delivered to a TV station rather than a two camera production that is digitally edited and uploaded to a web site.

# Why cover his face and then give his name? - Yes - this is a good point. That is what you would do if you weren't who you say you are. And it's one of those add on reasons that supports my conclusion.

# Political Timing and Motives - I've avoided this because I don't want to get distracted by a political debate. That debate is there - but I'm trying to focus on the facts that are not in dispute. I draw my information from the published pictures. Motive do need to be considered - but I'm not going there in this article.

# The CIA couldn't be that stupid - Yes - they can. This murder looks like the kind of short term bad thinking that the Bush administration is known for. The prison sex abuse pics we are seeing shows that - yes - they really can be that stupid.

# Orange Prison Garb - This is what I consider the strongest red flag that he was at the prison. Americans put prosiners in orange so that if they escape they are easier to spot. The last thing a kidnapper is going to do is put a hostage in orange. Orange is what you put on people who you want to attract attention to.

 

[member 5645]

There is something weird about Nick Berg, yes. Is this a CIA/MOSSAD conspiracy? Hardly anything points at that at this point except ramblings and fallacies from conspiracy sites. Things like "omg, a plastic chair " or "an orange jumpsuit!".

We are worried about terrorists getting weapons grade uranium,but they can't get an orange jumpsuit for a political statement?

 

[enigma]

We are worried about terrorists getting weapons grade uranium,but they can't get an orange jumpsuit for a political statement?

If it were a CIA conspiracy do you really think they would be stupid enough to have him dressed in a prison uniform?

I mean... come on people... it's called critical thinking.

 

[member 5645]

If it were a CIA conspiracy do you really think they would be stupid enough to have him dressed in a prison uniform?

I mean... come on people... it's called critical thinking.

But some soldiers beat up some Iraqis,so that means the CIA is stupid!

 

[GRQC]

If it were a CIA conspiracy do you really think they would be stupid enough to have him dressed in a prison uniform?

I don't subscribe to this Berg/CIA conspiracy theory. However, I would stop short at defending the stupidity level of the US government's actions in recent years.

The first rule of thumb about committing crimes: don't videotape yourself doing or saying something incriminating. You'd think they would have learned that from watching "America's Dumbest Criminals"...

 

[enigma]

But some soldiers beat up some Iraqis,so that means the CIA is stupid!

The first rule of thumb about committing crimes: don't videotape yourself doing or saying something incriminating.

Not that I agree with all of the tactics used in the prison, but videotaping/photographing is a standard interrogation technique. If you humiliate and put a person you're trying to interrogate under stress, they will eventually crack. If you have evidence of what you've done, it can be used to influence other prisoners. If the person being interrogated knows what will be coming if they don't talk, and they know that it won't stop until they do based on what they've seen happen to others, it'll make them falter quicker.

Again, I don't agree with all of the tactics used, but the people who are in unholy uproar over the photos are the same people who are complaining that we had awful intelligence prior to 9-11. Getting information from people who want to hurt you about how they're planning on hurting you is ugly business. You can't just go up to a militant and nicely ask where they're planning on blowing up the next car bomb. It takes "coersion", plain and simple.

 

[GRQC]

Again, I don't agree with all of the tactics used, but the people who are in unholy uproar over the photos are the same people who are complaining that we had awful intelligence prior to 9-11. Getting information from people who want to hurt you about how they're planning on hurting you is ugly business.

Not to digress from the topic at hand, but you must remember (a) these interrogation "techniques" are banned by rules of engagement which the US is claiming to be upholding, and moreover (b) most of these people are not trying to hurt anyone. The Wall Street Journal reported that between 70-90% of those being held were arrested by mistake. Not a good way to treat the innocent, from whom you're seeking sympathy.

 

[enigma]

I'm not debating that things were done wrong. That's what happens when you've got reservists doing the interrogating...

The lines are murky. There is quite a bit you can't do. Torture for instance. There are still many things you can do. I'm not certain on it, but I'm pretty sure you can do things like humiliate them, disrupt their sleep cycles, etc.

Note that the pictures of torture by the british troops were forgeries.

 

[GRQC]

I'm not debating that things were done wrong. That's what happens when you've got reservists doing the interrogating...

The reservists received orders from commanding officers -- who may have received their orders from much, much higher...

Note that the pictures of torture by the british troops were forgeries.

Not relevant here, since the US photos are authentic and have been corroborated by testimony.

 

[enigma]

The reservists received orders from commanding officers -- who may have received their orders from much, much higher...

Or so they (sort of) say. We don't know who gave them the orders, because they won't specifically come out and say who it was (unless something has changed since I looked last... which is possible).

If they're not willing to say who, I'm hesitant to believe them. If it was an actual order, why are they hiding who gave it?

 

[GRQC]

If it was an actual order, why are they hiding who gave it?

Because most of it is illegal and inhumane, and the fact is the government is denying *everything* these days, to save face in light of the coming election.

 

[enigma]

That doesn't explain why they're so adamandtly refusing to say who gave the order. If anything, it's a strike against them getting orders.

Not a single one wants to have their punishment reduced in exchange for talking? I'm hesitant to believe them...

 

[Njorl]

That doesn't explain why they're so adamandtly refusing to say who gave the order. If anything, it's a strike against them getting orders.

Not a single one wants to have their punishment reduced in exchange for talking? I'm hesitant to believe them...

You're assuming an offer has been made to reduce their sentence in return for cooperation. I am not aware that the offer has been made. The soldier who anonymously submitted the photographic evidence is being court martialed with the rest. Cooperation is punished, so far.

Njorl

 

[adrenaline]

Could this be a psyop operation? I don't thinkit is that way off base. If I remember correctly the CIA has a history of killing American innocent civilians. I remember the Michael Devine case when I had just entered the working world after college. In 1990, The CIA had commisioned an agent in Guatamala who was responsible for the 1990 torture and brutal slaying of Michael Devine, an American innkeeper (his head was nearly sawed off by a machete) and for the 1992 torture and murder of the husband of Jennifer Harbury, an American citizen.

Representative Robert Torricelli of New Jersey, who disclosed these facts, said "the agency is simply out of control and contains what can only be called a criminal element." But this was not the work of one overzealous agent or one rogue operation. This was, and is, standard operating procedure. In El Salvador and Guatemala and elsewhere around the globe, the "criminal element" is the CIA itself. The CIA organized the death squads in these countries, financed them, equipped them, trained them, and consulted with them on individual cases of torture and assassination. These are the facts. That's what the CIA does. The CIA knows it. The Pentagon knows it. The State Department knows it. The President knows it. Congress knows it. And no one does anything about it.

http://ssdc.ucsd.edu/news/notisur/h95/notisur.19950331.html

Normally, I am not a conspirationalist type of person but it's not like the CIA has a sterling reputation. However, as everyone pointed out, they sure were sloppy to leave all those clues.

 

[motai]

The lines are murky. There is quite a bit you can't do. Torture for instance. There are still many things you can do. I'm not certain on it, but I'm pretty sure you can do things like humiliate them, disrupt their sleep cycles, etc.

Have the interrogators ever looked toward an "supreme annoyance" policy? As in find a person with the most scratchiest, high pitched, and generally the abosolutely most annoying worst dialect ever imaginable that someone can ever possibly speak, and have them repeat things to the prisoner until they are driven mad.

 

[pelastration]

Have the interrogators ever looked toward an "supreme annoyance" policy? As in find a person with the most scratchiest, high pitched, and generally the abosolutely most annoying worst dialect ever imaginable that someone can ever possibly speak, and have them repeat things to the prisoner until they are driven mad.

Indeed, that what they do also in Guantanomo ... a lot of rap with plenty of ****-words.

Added: hé ... I typed the real letters ... and it was converted to those high quality stars.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

Don't forget that the words "Now are we done" seem to be said at the end of the tape while Berg's head is being displayed.

I don't think you need a conspiracy theory for this one- the only evidence linking the tape to Mousawi are the titles, which could have been manufactured by literally anyone who had access to the tape before it was webcast. Also, there's a logical inconsistency with Mousawi proclaiming his identity in the titles but hiding it while committing the act. Not to mention that Mousawi was reported as having lost a leg in 2001 and killed in 2003. There are at least 3 edits or splices when the time signature jumps about 11 hours, and dozens of other circimstantial things that are suggestive to say the least. The CIA claims to have done analysis of some type on the voice of the killer, but will not present this evidence. If waveform analysis has been done, it should be public.

One thing is clear- I;ve found absolutely no proof that the official story is true.

 

[Kacper]

one this is ridiculus to say that the CIA is behind the death of Nick Berg. Also it is just plain dumb to say that the interrogations were conducted improperly because they were conducted by reservists. Reservists receive the same military training that active duty military recieve. So they conduct interrogations in the same manner. Just because there are a select few who find it funny to abuse prisoners does not reflect on the rest of the military and how they run things. But back to Nick Berg, the CIA would not stage something like that and make obvious mistakes like the ones you are trying to point out. There have been many CIA cover ups that have been revealed in some manner but they all were good and usually took an inside source to expose the truth. Orange jumpsuits, lawn chairs, edits, etc. does it matter? Nick Berg is dead and dirty liberals are trying to blame the CIA when we are at war with terrorists. Where is the logic in blaming his murder on the CIA?

 

[member 5645]

one this is ridiculus to say that the CIA is behind the death of Nick Berg. Also it is just plain dumb to say that the interrogations were conducted improperly because they were conducted by reservists. Reservists receive the same military training that active duty military recieve. So they conduct interrogations in the same manner. Just because there are a select few who find it funny to abuse prisoners does not reflect on the rest of the military and how they run things. But back to Nick Berg, the CIA would not stage something like that and make obvious mistakes like the ones you are trying to point out. There have been many CIA cover ups that have been revealed in some manner but they all were good and usually took an inside source to expose the truth. Orange jumpsuits, lawn chairs, edits, etc. does it matter? Nick Berg is dead and dirty liberals are trying to blame the CIA when we are at war with terrorists. Where is the logic in blaming his murder on the CIA?

Oh man, Germany rocks!

 

[studentx]

Yes, germany rocks. I find it despicable how Nick Bergs death is being used by the anti Bush crowds.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

Hey if you have proof one way or the other, don't keep it to yourself. That's just a good way to tear down our troops.

 

[Rashad]

Hmmm...let's begin with that I have no clue to who killed Nick Berg, but here's some questions that bring me doubt to the official story...

Well, Muslims. Killing innocent people is one of those danged things that get you into hell, not the Qur'an quote

"To kill one innocent man or woman is to kill all of humanity; to save one human is to save all of humanity."

And executions must be done after a proper trial, with credible witnesses, and a prayer for forgiveness must be given from the executioner. Well then hey, it's Muslims gone mad, angry at the Abu Ghraib torturings.

I suppose that's possible, but still, why was Nick Berg imprisoned by coalition forces until his family sued Donald Rumsfeld? As stated before - the orange jumpsuit is strange, I would expect Arab clothing to draw less suspicion, but it doesn't mean very much.

Now, the way "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great) was proclaimed, in a seemingly strained attempt at Arabic doesn't persuade me that it was Arab Muslims. To improperly say "Allahu Akbar" in such a strained manner would sound akward or like a question, and to say in mockery or to ask "Is God Great?" is not the best thing to do, according to Islam.

Nick Berg was Jewish, so why exactly was he dropped off in hostile Arab territory? Oh yeah, the chair he sat in looks to me like the same chairs issued at Abu Ghraib.

W. Bush has said that these killers will be hunted down, but well, their faces were covered, and so we don't exactly know who they are. If they're Muslim, sorry buddy, you're condemned to hell. But the more I read on this, the more I doubt the Bush Administration's story, but whatever.

Some links I've read in the past, which I used to formulate this post. Please at least skim through them, I haven't done them justice with such a meager post.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/bloodstainanalysis.asp
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/28/1085641717320.html?oneclick=true
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FE22Ak03.html
http://www.libertyforum.org/showfla...al&Number=1471708&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=21∂=1 (its detailed, but its a forum...and I don't mean anything by it, but forums aren't my number one source for facts. But this is very detailed...)
http://www.rense.com/general52/anom.htm

 

[Robert Zaleski]

What a load. This has more dung then a herd of elephants suffering from amoebic dysentery.

 

[Adam]

Zaleski: Why do you say it is a "load"?

 

[russ_watters]

Hmmm...let's begin with that I have no clue to who killed Nick Berg, but here's some questions that bring me doubt to the official story...

Well, Muslims. Killing innocent people is one of those danged things that get you into hell, not the Qur'an quote

"To kill one innocent man or woman is to kill all of humanity; to save one human is to save all of humanity."

And executions must be done after a proper trial, with credible witnesses, and a prayer for forgiveness must be given from the executioner. Well then hey, it's Muslims gone mad, angry at the Abu Ghraib torturings.

Are you saying its unheard of for people calling themselves Muslims to act in this manner?

 

[Robert Zaleski]

Nick Berg was Jewish, so why exactly was he dropped off in hostile Arab territory? Oh yeah, the chair he sat in looks to me like the same chairs issued at Abu Ghraib

Make up your mind Rashad, did we American's throw Nick Berg to the lions or did we do the dirty deed ourselves.

 

[Adam]

Can someone please work through Rashad's post point by point?

 

[Rashad]

Russ, maybe that's what I'm getting at. And Robert Zaleski, I'm afraid I don't know enough to make such an opinion. Adam, sorry for the horrible post, if someone could please make some sense of that and tell it in a way in which it may make sense...

~Rashad

 

[studentx]

Hmmm...let's begin with that I have no clue to who killed Nick Berg, but here's some questions that bring me doubt to the official story...

Well, Muslims. Killing innocent people is one of those danged things that get you into hell, not the Qur'an quote

"To kill one innocent man or woman is to kill all of humanity; to save one human is to save all of humanity."

And executions must be done after a proper trial, with credible witnesses, and a prayer for forgiveness must be given from the executioner. Well then hey, it's Muslims gone mad, angry at the Abu Ghraib torturings.

Over the past 3 years i have seen a constant stream of muslim extremists killing mostly civilians. The fact that the Quran forbids killing means nothing. Every religion has books that forbid killing, even atheists (the law). Also the majority of muslims has never read the Quran, which forbids many things the hadiths tell them to do.

I suppose that's possible, but still, why was Nick Berg imprisoned by coalition forces until his family sued Donald Rumsfeld?

I forgot why Berg was imprisoned, but being imprisoned is not something mysterious, especially not in a warzone.

As stated before - the orange jumpsuit is strange, I would expect Arab clothing to draw less suspicion, but it doesn't mean very much.

There is no need to dress him in arab clothing when the man is being held inside, guarded by a dozen terrorists. The argument you give here also applies for the CIA, KGB ,whoever you think staged the beheading. They would want to keep a low profile too.
The orange jumpsuit is all but strange seeing as they mentioned Abu ghraib, a prison.

Now, the way "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great) was proclaimed, in a seemingly strained attempt at Arabic doesn't persuade me that it was Arab Muslims. To improperly say "Allahu Akbar" in such a strained manner would sound akward or like a question, and to say in mockery or to ask "Is God Great?" is not the best thing to do, according to Islam.

I didnt find anything strange about the way they screamed Allahu akbar , (which means God is the greatest, not god is great). Considering they were sawing a mans head off i find their tone of voice particularly decent and following their hadiths and Quran. Nowhere did i hear them ASK allahu akbar

Nick Berg was Jewish, so why exactly was he dropped off in hostile Arab territory? Oh yeah, the chair he sat in looks to me like the same chairs issued at Abu Ghraib.

The Quran has a verse which states Christians and Jews are not the enemy, after all they worship the same god. The chair he sat in might be identical to Ghraib chairs. Combined with the orange prison outfit, and the mentioning of Abu Ghraib, it should become blindingly clear that they tried to mimic Abu Ghraib! Strange and mysterious, perhaps in another dimension. They explained this mystery themselves in the video of the beheading

W. Bush has said that these killers will be hunted down, but well, their faces were covered, and so we don't exactly know who they are. If they're Muslim, sorry buddy, you're condemned to hell. But the more I read on this, the more I doubt the Bush Administration's story, but whatever.

The website that posted the beheading and statements of Alquada, gave away the name of the beheader.

 

[decibel]

Allahu akbar DOES mean god is great

 

[kat]

No, "Akbar" spelled "alef, kaf, baa, raa" in Arabic is the emphatic form of the root "kaaf, baa, raa" which means great. So, "Akbar" will mean greater or greatest.
The term Allahu akbar was probably used, in this case, because they wanted us to realize that in their opinion they were slaughtering an animal.

so called "muslim" extremist have been beheading innocents for quite awhile, they just did not have the ability/knowledge to spread the graphic pictures on the internet so it has often gone somewhat unnoticed by the general populace.

 

[studentx]

In Algeria muslim fanatics made it a sport to behead as many innocents as possible, including small babies and pregnant women. They manage to behead several dozens each time they go on a rampage, which is (or was?) pretty often.

 

[Rashad]

Thanks for the insight, studentx. I agree, although the Qur'an says not to kill innocents, 'revenge' upon innocent men and women has been a sort of tradition in many Muslim tribes, although the form of revenge is quite senseless. So in your opinion, I (or anyone) should have no doubts concerning the official story of Nick Berg, i.e. that it was Zarqawi?

 

[wasteofo2]

Regardless of how improbabale it is that the CIA killed Berg, it is interesting to note that the terrorist on the right is wearing white sneakers, and that the guys whose wrists/hands are exposed look pretty caucasian. For the looking like they have caucasian skin, it could just be a trick of light, or they could be particularly light skinned arabs. Also, they all kinda look like they're wearing sweatshirts and sweatpants, and with the guy on the right, you can see the elastic part of his shirt around his wrist, just like a lot of sweatshirts have.

 

[studentx]

So in your opinion, I (or anyone) should have no doubts concerning the official story of Nick Berg, i.e. that it was Zarqawi?

I don't see what is unbelievable about extremist muslims beheading Nick Berg. Especially since a few days ago they did the same to Paul Johnson and today are probably going to behead a Korean civilian. IMO there is no doubt muslim fanatics were behind Bergs beheading. I think you may doubt it after you condemned the action comitted by Islamic terrorists. Unfortunately most don't even get to the point of condemning it , they can't face the horrible truth that Americas enemy is worse than America.

Regardless of how improbabale it is that the CIA killed Berg, it is interesting to note that the terrorist on the right is wearing white sneakers, and that the guys whose wrists/hands are exposed look pretty caucasian. For the looking like they have caucasian skin, it could just be a trick of light, or they could be particularly light skinned arabs. Also, they all kinda look like they're wearing sweatshirts and sweatpants, and with the guy on the right, you can see the elastic part of his shirt around his wrist, just like a lot of sweatshirts have.

Sneakers are for sale all around the globe, so are sweatshirts and pants. Not all muslims are arabs, there are plenty of caucasians. It seems all terrorists have to do today, is put on some sneakers